Link: Yoorrook Justice Commission Website

Charles Pakana (Victorian Aboriginal News)

And joining me today on the Van Talks podcast is Kerrupmara Gunditjmara man. Travis Lovett, who has been a Commissioner at the Yoorrook Justice Commission since the 6th of March 2023, joins us to talk about the work that’s been undertaken throughout the year by the Yoorrook Justice Commission and looking forward to what might be happening over the next 12 months. Commissioner, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

Commissioner Travis Lovett:

Yeah, thanks very much and thanks for the opportunity Unc to come and share, you know some of my story, but also some of the work that we’re up to at Yoorrook Justice Commission really trying to highlight the  ongoing impacts of colonisation against our people here in Victoria.

Charles:

And one of the things that you have is that you’ve got incredibly strong connections to Country and language. And we spoke before we started recording the podcast and I offered you the invitation to do an Acknowledgement of Country in your own language. So over to you, my brother.

Travis:

Thank you very much. I think also I’ll just, normally I do this afterwards, but I’ll preface this this around. I always like speaking and sharing language because I think it’s important to send messages to our old people to let them know that their fights, their struggle, their resistance, their resilience and then passing on knowledge, which is a significant part of our culture, is still alive and thriving here. And I feel that language is inside everybody. It’s just people. At their points in life and their times to be able to bring them out, you’re born with it. It’s part of your connection and your identity. And at a point in time, people will choose to engage with it as well. So, but yeah…

[Language]

So I just acknowledge Country. I pay my Respects to my ancestors the proud Kerrup Gunditjmara man recognise I am on the lands and we are on the lands today conducting this deadly podcast on Wurundjeri Country and recognise their ongoing connection to the birrarung which is some people know it ias the Yarra but now people know it is a bitter long and it is a birrarung and I think that many Wurundjeri men and women have created and conducted Ceremony on that waterway for a long period of time. So I always recognise that country and water are not uncoupled, they are one but at the same time important to recognise personal and deep connections that they have as well. And we get to live and really conduct really important business at this Yoorrook Justice Commission on Wurundjeri Country. I also acknowledge their connection to their spirit creator Bunjil and also Waa the Crow, which is important as well as a part of our custom to recognise. The lore and why is the lore man or the lore creator and so forth. So I think it’s important anyway that we always do that and no matter where we are as Aboriginal people, we always respect other people’s laws. And there’s a lot of synergies between our laws on country, but there’s also some differences as well that many people don’t know about, but. First and foremost, you always acknowledge that you’re on someone else’s land and you state your intentions.

Charles:

I think it’s really important to say that, I’m going to jump in here and this is we can go right off the off, off track. But one of the things that I do get quite emphatic about, whenever I’m at an event and I hear people do an Acknowledgement of Country. And quite often we hear it in local government and other areas. And it’s just this plain, yeah, we acknowledge we’re here today on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woi wurrung and, you know there’s no emphasis, there’s no feeling, there’s no passion, no thought behind it. How does that affect you when you hear that sort of stuff?

Travis

Yeah, look, it is a really good question. I get a little bit emotional about it because you know, I mean it’s important to our people and we as Aboriginal people, we take our business and our culture and our identity and language very seriously and I think that people are going through the motions and that’s not about. What the I guess the customary process is about, it’s about pausing, reflecting and recognising and again as I said before in stating your intentions around what the event is today or what the intentions are of you being on other people’s Country as well. So yeah it is you know challenging when people just get off or they’re pronounced the TO group or that you know that the Traditional Owner group wrong as well. So you know, and I know that there’s, you know, there’s a part around where we recognise. People trying to have a go, but then there’s a lot of the times that it can become quite rhetorical as well. So I think that we do want to encourage non Aboriginal people to engage in this customary process, but also. To do a little bit of research and add a bit of personal sentiment around why they are personally doing it, rather than kind of reading off a script and just using word for word and actually just sharing a little bit of insights around, you know, even just for the point that they might be on Wurundjeri or Woi wurrung Country, but they might have grown up on Gunditjmara Country. So it’s saying, all right, well here we’re on the lands of the Wurundjeri people recognise their Elders past, present and future and acknowledge that, but then sort of bring a bit of personal connection to where I grew up on another person’s Country or something like that as an example. But, it can be quite disheartening at the same time, you know, and I think that we just got to keep reinforcing the messages around why it’s so important and why we always do it.

Charles:

There’s a lot of passion behind you. I can hear that. I wasn’t expecting that sort of answer. I love it. So let’s, before we get into the work of Yoorrook in 2023 and then going forward to 2024, let’s have a bit of an understanding as to why Travis Lovett put his name forward to be a Commissioner. Because quite frankly, you’ve done an enormous amount of work. You’ve worked in the Koorie Courts, you’ve worked in Aboriginal Victoria, you’ve been all over the place, especially in the state government. What was the tipping point for you to decide this is something that I’d like to investigate, becoming one of the Commissioners.

Travis:

Yeah. It’s a really, really great question. I mean, you’ve just talked about a number of things, I think. Having the experience around first working at VAEAI and education, you know, to work in sort of the education sector, a little bit in health, mainly in social policy like justice and natural resource management. So kind of just wanting to really pick up on the skills that I gained in working with my people in the community or Koorie orgs as we call them, or Aboriginal organisations or ACCOs. To also utilise the skills and expertise that I was able to acquire when I worked in government at many different levels. And feeling that I, you know you never think you’re ready and I think that is something that I don’t probably go off topic here but you know we as black fellas well a lot of us haven’t you know suffer from imposter syndrome. Am I ready? Is this the right thing and so forth as well? So talking to role models and mentors that I had as well around having the ability to kind of is this something that people would back me in as well, you know, having that sort of blessing from your people to be able to back you in for something. And I guess cherry pick as well, cherry pick from the talents of individuals around you that you really like and that you feel that you could use the skills and strategic approach around that kind of stuff. And they’re also just, you know, being there to support our people. But just feeling that I’ve got a lot to give, you know? And I think one of the things that I really pride myself on is I am young. I don’t like to say I’m too young, but I am, you know, I guess, quite youthful still. But I always like to have that mantra of you know we’re not defined by our age around what we can contribute to our people. So that was I guess you know something a catalyst for me going well. I’ve got a lot of skills. I’ve got a lot of expertise. I know quite a bit about land and waters and all that kind of stuff as well. So I think that you know and having you know been to university as well and so you know work through a lot of stuff. But just feeling I can contribute and actually bring justice for our people really is the main thing.

It’s just like I think that’s why I put my hand up and. And went through a process you know it’s quite an exhaustive process to become a Commissioner but I don’t want to deter people from that. It’s it’s we’ve got to put our hands up. We’ve got to have our people in senior roles. You know I grew up in the public housing right across the road here actually in those Fitzroy flats. A lot of people see me today and they see the suit the tie and all that kind of stuff. But actually hey brother boy started in the Fitzroy high rises over there and I’m proud of that. You know it’s a it hasn’t been a, you know, an easy ride. I mean many of us know the Lovett family and the Lovett story and moving into Melbourne and stuff. So you know just I think it incredibly important.

Charles:

So you came in and you filled in the seat of Uncle Wayne Atkinson and you had to hit the ground running 6th of March, that’s when the announcement was made, that’s when you formally became a Commissioner and essentially you’re less than two years out from the ending of taking submissions and we’ll get more to that a little bit later on from the 6th of March onwards what was it like for the newly minted Commissioner travelling out on Country, taking evidence? What’s it been like since March this year?

Travis:

Yeah, what a whirlwind. I think on my first day I was actually, we had a hearing with a couple of organisations coming give evidence around justice issues. And so that was kind of a bit of a deer in the headlights because whilst it’s a more culturally appropriate process, it’s still quite a formal room in there and it gives gravitas to the importance of it being a Royal Commission. And a Truth Telling Commission first and foremost, but also having the Royal Commission powers. So, but just I’m a big personality and I’m, I’m, I’m really confident and I do like talking, you know us Gunditjmara people do talk very fast. So I should have highlighted that at the start.

Charles:

[laughs] that is something I’ve noticed about the mob from down the southwest.

Travis:

Yeah. But you know, I think that’s the thing being connected to your people. I already knew some of the people that came before on my first day in a sense. So I think also I guess having the luxury of being able to watch some of the hearings that the other Commissioners had conducted prior to me coming as well. To getting a feel for the role that way but, but just utilising my lived experience to be able to come in and just start asking questions from day one prompting around hey, can we unpack that a little bit more? You were talking about you know for instance your roles on the Koorie courts. Just using that as an example of the person that was before us. You know, like is there any opportunities that you see that you’ve been working there for years around, you know, reform opportunities or what are the current barriers to, you know, people coming before things like that as well.

Charles:

You know what took you by surprise? Because there must have been some things that when you came in here, you would have thought. Wasn’t expecting that.

Travis:

That’s a really good question, actually, and I think I wanted to have.

Charles:

[laughs] I’ve got Travis Lovett stumped, yeah, this is good. This is going to the archives. Oh brother

Travis:

This is, yeah. No, but I think there’s, I mean there’s sort of, there’s so much, you know, I think, I think, I think it’s trying to encourage really our people to come before and tell the truth. So actually, you know, ensuring that we’ve got more of our people’s voices. And I know we’re going to get to that about the submission process soon, but really you know, our priority here, our number one priority out of anything is to make sure that we are having a culturally appropriate and a trauma informed approach to how we are taking truth for our people.

Charles:

But this really goes back to your time with the Koorie Court. I can see a lot of similarities, and surely you would too.

Travis:

Yeah, it’s a good point, actually. One of the things that I first did when I did walk in was it reminded me of the Koorie Court. So when I first walked in the room, I just sort of got to feel no one else is in the room. I walked in. I’m like, oh wow, this is actually, it just reminded me straight away. It’s interesting to say that of Koorie Courts but a but a quite a grandiose version of Koorie courts because the table is huge, there’s lawyers everywhere and all that kind of stuff as well. So yeah, but really, I guess just making sure that we are providing a really good service for our people and being able to capture the truth, I think is something. yeah.

Charles:

So have you done much travelling around the country this year? Because I assume there would have been a fair bit of that, travelling out there to hearings, taking evidence, speaking to community. What are some of the highlights?

Travis:

Yeah, they’ve done heaps of engagement. It’s been, absolutely. You know, one of the things I’ve always prioritised in my work, whether I’ve worked in community or whether I’ve worked in government or in my personal life. You know, engaging with the mob, getting out and talking to them. A lot of the connections we develop, we as blackfellas have run the principle of we develop connections for life. It’s not transactional. So we’re able to draw on experiences and expertise and network through the work that we do. As well, I feel that I’m pretty honest and straight out and transparent with people as well. So you know where you stand with me, but also, you know I’m a really good listener and I think that something that, you know, again I’ve prioritised building relationships, longevity.

Charles:

So what are some of the places you’ve been to really stick to mind? Yeah.

Travis:

Totally. I mean we’ve been up on the Murray country you know and I think a lot of people in the Traditional Owner space will government sort of version of the Registered Aboriginal Party. So we’ve met with a number of registered parties, but one of the things I’m really proud about. In the work that we’ve been doing, as well as meeting with them, but also the non-registered Aboriginal parties, the likes of Wamba Mob, the likes of Watti [Watti] and the Tutti Tutti’s, Monaro Mob, we were just down there a couple of weeks ago. So really I think I’ve been nearly everywhere in the state really trying to get out and talk to as many people who want to meet with us. There’s no caveats around who can come forward…

Charles:

So you don’t need a seat at the table. You don’t need to be a RAP to have a seat at the table.

Travis:

Exactly. That’s a really good thing. I think that’s something that I really want to emphasise through this podcast but also through the work that we’re doing. We are here to talk and listen really we’re here to talk about the work of you look but actually listen to mob. And that’s you know a key part of our role is actually more important that the listening and the and the taking of truth. So you’re listening to people’s story. We do have you know also counsellors available to work through the trauma that this does bring up for people. We also use the line this to try to heal our people as well. But it does bring up a lot of a lot of things. You know, we’re talking about land, we’re talking about, you know, you know, people passing away in custody, which has personally impacted me and my family in more recent times as well. So I, I know how it feels, you know, over representation of our children in the child protection system as well. You know, I’ve got, I’ve got nieces and nephews who have been through that system. So this is personal, deeply personal to us and us as Commissioners as well. You know we have family that are impacted by these systems and so you know we’re trying to work really hard to make sure that we put recommendations forward to the government and we have expectations of the government that they implement the recommendations of our report, you know 46 recommendations. We’ve tried to also make sure that we are enabling self-determination because we’ve heard loud and clear through the community engagement and the round tables that we’ve been having, the self-determination is the number one priority. The number one priority from one of the first things they say is we want self-determination, Self-determination.

Charles:

We’ll get to that in a minute. Because you did, no, no, you did mention land. Now you are leading up the investigation to Land, Sky and Waters now submissions for that I think finalised on about the 17th of November, but evidence, I assume is still being taken on that. So what’s the focus? Because I believe there are 6 themes under that investigation. So let’s have a bit of a yarn about that, because that’s your key area of responsibility right now within your Yoorrook.

Travis:

Yeah, that’s one of the things I’m, I’m, I’ll be blessed, you know internally to be able to do is lead this work land and justice for me is one of the most important components of Truth Telling in Victoria. I mean it’s important to everyone across Australia as well. So, you know, understanding, you know, things like the current regimes or the current policies and frameworks that government have. Things like Native Title, things like the Traditional Owner Settlement Agreement, things like the RAP process, you know, through the Aboriginal Heritage Council.

Charles:

That’s pretty contentious. Let’s be frank that that’s it’s not a year that goes by, that there’s not some kerfuffle arising from a decision over boundaries and non-recognition of RAPs, whatever. So this is all of a sudden this is within your purview.

Travis:

That’s exactly right. But we have to understand that this is, this is also our people navigating 200 years of colonial roots that these systems Native Title, Tradition Owner Settlement Agreement and the RAP process, they implement elements of our culture. But the reality are is they are colonial processes that we don’t have as Aboriginal people any decision making of. So I think that’s this is something we’re hearing a lot from community across the state of Victoria as well. They’re not fit for purpose and they’ve generated some benefits to our people, but there’s also a lot of sacrifice that comes with, you know, engaging in these processes as well. So I think. You know another thing that we’re hearing pretty loud and clear is, is, is where’s the economic opportunities generated from land, Where’s the economic opportunities generated from water. We as Aboriginal people and the mob are telling us that they’re passionate about the birrarung for instance around the health of our waterways. So it’s not just about economic development. We as mob, and we’ve heard this loud and clear, is that we don’t look at things purely from an economic lens like a lot of people in society do we first look after caring for Country, culture, health of lands and waters and people and so forth as well, so again, coming back to 200 years of destruction, devastation and cultural deprivation of the landscape is what we are actually talking to community about and we’re encouraging community come forward and share their truths about particular places sites whether it be boundaries, whether it be aspirations as well. We need to understand what do you want to see in the future. I mean that’s how that’s part of our Terms of Reference that you look as we have to provide recommendations back to government. And the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria that they will negotiate through Treaty. Some of the stuff government’s got to keep cracking on already, as we’ve recommended.

Charles:

Now this is really important because you’ve emphasised that it’s the provision of recommendations to the state government, the First People’s Assembly of Victoria. So Yoorrook is not about actually changing boundaries. It’s not overturning the decisions made by the Koorie Heritage.

It’s not introducing Registered Aboriginal Party authority to other mobs. It’s about collecting the information, isn’t it?

Travis:

That’s exactly right. We’re not here to prosecute any boundaries or any decisions, but I do want to be really clear that we do have the authority to question the processes that lead to the determinations. So there’s a just, clear distinction there that yes, distinctions have been made or decisions have been made. About those boundaries and authority to speak for Country, I want to be clear that we’re not looking and investigating that, but it’s actually about the system, the process that we put our people through to be able to ultimately determine that for them to be able to as non-Aboriginal people and decision makes determining on who the right people are for Country and so forth so we can make recommendations around. Processes or and how to improve processes, but also identify new and innovative ways that work for our people, our culture, our identity and our cultural protocols, what we call LORE. We are constantly in the constructs of 200 years of colonialism around law that continually articulates a hierarchy over our lore. We have the unique ability, through the work at Yoorrook, to incorporate more of our lore practices. And I think that that’s something that should we hear from mob and community about what their expectations are, then that will also help inform the recommendations, which is again why we want to talk to as many people that want to come forward and share their truths, whether it be land, whether it be health and all those other streams, primarily land. Right now, what we’re talking about to be able to share again the aspiration around what they want to see for the future, how people have been held in, again, the colonial process for so long that a lot of our people are only thinking about. The current barriers to that situation. So when we say to our mob like oh OK, well what is what? What do you want to see in the future. A lot of them are still we can identify issues because that’s as a people we’ve been held in that space around issues to identify issues rather than what the solutions are.

Charles:

So what’s next for the Land, Sky and Waters area of investigation?

Travis:

Yeah, that’s a really good question. So we continually are going out. So whilst we’ve been extensively going out and engaging across the state, as you said before as well, our submissions have closed but we have extended. I guess a few people are written in and asked for an extension as well. So, but we are really trying to you know make sure that we collect as much evidence and that can be done through written submissions, that can be done through the round tables that we’re holding and people coming forward as well. So I think that really utilising that process to be able to gather information we are still, as I said continually going across the state and meeting with a number of groups. I’ve got a I’ve got a session in a couple of days, a couple this week actually. And we have been going out on weekends. I want to stress to mob, this is not just a nine to five gig. Monday to Friday we, you know, we are available and we’ve been doing Saturday and Sunday sessions since I got here. And I can’t talk for all because I wasn’t here, but since I’ve got here, we’ve had a number of Commissioners out on the weekends doing stuff as well. So we are really keen to go and meet with the mob on their terms, on their Country or the ways that they need us to be able to gather evidence and information. We’ve also got our truth receivers as well talking the mob continually gathering evidence and truths across the state as well. So I think that going and talking to community more about that also early next year you know we’ll have some, we still haven’t locked in the dates yet but we will have some government accountability Hearings as we did for criminal justice and child protection.

Charles:

So what will they look like as government accountability hearings?

Travis:

Yeah. So this is where we bring ministers forward, key ministers that have decision making power and authority over the portfolios, things like you know, water things, land and so forth, just using the land justice as an example. So you know, asking them to come forward and answer a number of questions.

Charles:

Would you be bringing forward though, past ministers? Because obviously when you look at the First Peoples and Treaty Minister, we’ve got Natalie Hutchins now. I know she was involved previously as well, but what about Gabrielle Williams? What about Gavin Jenkins? Those people have held that portfolio really for the past decade or so together. Would you expect to be bringing those in there as well?

Travis:

Look, as we’re gathering evidence from the community as well and the mob and Traditional Owners across the state, we are I guess still planning on who will bring forward. But what I do want to make clear to mob listening in and community anyway is that we have the ability to also call back previous ministers as a Royal. Commission, we got the powers to compel. But we also, you know, most people, most sorry most times when we have requested a minister or a senior bureaucrat come, they have, you know, openly, openly come as well. So we do have the powers to be able to do that. And if community across the state are really asking for you know, and identifying key moments in history that have really or decisions that have really impacted on their ability to gain access to, you know, to culture, Country and so forth, we’ll be able to, you know, consider what our approach would be to bringing previous people back. So I’m not saying we’re going to do that. What I’m saying is we have the ability and the authority and the power to use a non black fella word, power, to actually be able to bring people before the Commission.

Charles:

I like the emphasis on that one, it was, noted Travis. So well done. Now we’ve only got a couple of minutes left, but I do want to ask about the fact that we’ve got right now, as of publishing of this episode, we’ve got about 12 months until it’s cut off date for the collection of submissions and the giving of evidence. So what would you be urging community right across Victoria to start considering And we’re talking about Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal community.

Travis:

Yeah I think I think come forward and share your truths. I mean you know for our people as well you know there is you know a lot to be said and I think that I just really want to encourage people to be able to you know engage with us and come forward and share their truths as well. You know I’ve talked to some of the other mob about some of the other people that have been before you know us and talk about the experience. But really you know we do again, we are a trauma informed that we do have counsellors available to be able to you know engage with people should they want to engage with that that service to be able to help them through the process. We’ve got truth receivers out there promoting all the work that we’re doing at Yoorrook this is our people’s chance, the first chance that we’ve had to be able to put our truths on the public record. This is not Victorian truths in the context, sorry Aboriginal truths. This is the true history of Victoria. We have to be really clear on that because it’s not you know, and I think that’s something that I keep emphasising as well, the true history of Victoria engaging non-Aboriginal people as well. You know, some families have been able to build, you know, generate a lot of wealth from our Country, our people’s Country across the state as well. So and there’s been a lot of trauma you know, whether we’re talking about sorry business sites or massacre sites, which other way you want to articulate that or you know pastoral lands and so forth as well-being. What they’ve been able to do with the land that was taken from our people, them coming forward as well. We’re encouraging non-Aboriginal people to come forward and share their truths around their families, contributions to the impacts of colonisation on our people as well and people shouldn’t be scared to engage in this process. We’re encouraging people to come forward and share the true history of Victoria because again, it’s incredibly important, it’s our people’s first time to be able to put our truths, the truth, on the public record.

Charles:

And what we will do is on the website, the Victorian Aboriginal News website, we’ll provide links to the Yoorrook Justice Commission’s website, where there are full details on how to provide submissions and provide evidence as well. Commissioner Travis Lovett, thank you so much indeed for your time.

Travis:

Deadly, and thanks for the opportunity again to come and share some of the work that we’re doing in the Yoorrook Justice Commission. And in my language or in our language… we say wurruk, which means for now, we never say goodbye in Aboriginal culture because we always see each other again in the future. So wurruk.