Charles Pakana (VAN):
As I mentioned before the news, this week we’re maintaining our focus on the Victorian Treaty process and joining me first up is the State Member for Sydenham, Natalie Hutchins MP, who along with holding the portfolios of Minister for Jobs and Industry and Minister for Women is the Victorian Minister for Treaty and First Peoples. Minister, thanks so much indeed for joining us here on the VAN Talks podcast.

Minister Natalie Hutchins:
Thanks for having me.

Charles:
First of all, the state government, a lot of people are looking at it as this is funding the Assembly itself and it’s also funding its own operations within. So it’s funding both sides of the Treaty process through its own infrastructure and the Treaty Fund. How can you justify this to all Victorians, given the financial difficulties that we’re all facing right now, especially in the upshot of or the outcome of the lockdowns, it could be really regarded as a conflict of interest. So how does the government justify this?

Natalie:
It’s a commitment we made seven years ago now and I think it’s worth just revisiting the fact that we’re not just mapping out a road to Treaty, we’re building the road as we go. So there’s a lot of technicalities that come with that. And quite frankly, you know, I would have loved to have seen a federal government step in and be involved in a Treaty process 10 years, 20 years ago and to be part of that funding process of this.

But Victoria has taken it on ourselves. We’ve made that commitment. We’ve taken policy, legislation, budget commitments to two different elections now, we’re in our third term and we’re very, very much on track of not just, as I said, mapping the road to Treaty, but building the road to Treaty. And that means funding both sides and making sure that there’s a quality when it comes to, I guess, both the legal support and the general communications support that’s needed to get out to community in general.

And then of course, there’s also funding there for a Treaty Authority, so making sure that we have an independent umpire that’s involved in all of this. And I’m sure the Treasurer would tell you if there was another way to go about approaching this where the government didn’t have to pay for all of this, he’d probably have a preference to be able to redirect that funding into other projects. But the reality is, is that we’re committed to this. We’ve taken it to a number of elections now and we are on at the pointy end of this process of being able to negotiate and I think that is an amazing thing and we know that when our First Nations, our Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander Victorians thrive, community thrives.

So this is about an investment and when we know that certainly First Nations people are harshly affected by a whole range of issues, but cost of living bites even harder. But we can walk and chew gum at the same time and that is make policy, implement policy in a number of areas. And we are doing that to kind of offset that cost of living challenge that is currently around that will come and go over many years and we’ve been on this road for seven years now and we’re not about to get off it.

Charles:
Was there any consideration at all coming out of the Covid lockdowns and obviously the financial impact that had on the government to slow the process down, work with the Assembly and say maybe look just back off a little bit, we’ve got to recover from this financial hardship that the state’s really been hit with?

Natalie:
Oh look, I think a lot of the major investment was already made ahead of Covid, to be honest. And we’d already put the pegs in the ground for future budgets around investing in both the establishment of the Assembly around investing in Truth Telling with Yoorrook and also our plans for the treaty authority to be that independent body. So, yeah, a lot of time and investment has gone in from the state government, but we absolutely really believe that this is going to deliver better outcomes for all Victorians at the end of the day. And because we got financial challenges or COVID challenges doesn’t mean we stop with our commitments that we’ve made.

Charles:
You’ve mentioned you can see positive outcomes for Victorian people and in your previous answer you mentioned that this was an investment in Victoria. What are some of those benefits that you see for all of Victoria as a result of Treaty? What we’re talking here, I assume about the state-wide Treaty?

Natalie:
Some of the benefits are certainly ending disadvantage in opening up opportunity for our First Nations Victorians to be able to thrive and to really embed self-determination and economic participation as well. So opening up those opportunities to do more when it comes to culture but also to do more when it comes to being self-sustainable. And you know, I think of about 10 different projects in regional Victoria now that I know will continue to thrive and be better resourced into the future through the outcomes of a Treaty.

And that’s about giving power and independence and self determination to Aboriginal people to make decisions around their own future. Whether that’s about the delivery of services or whether that’s about economic participation, building up job opportunities, giving more opportunities to Traditional Owner corporations and groups to make sure that they’re thriving, driving in their local area.

Charles:
What do you say then to those sections of the community that might be saying, well, you’re giving Aboriginal people an unfair advantage and we heard that so often during the referendum campaign and we’re not going to go there. But what do you say to that part of the community because it is a loud voice out there.

Natalie:
I’d say that there’s been a lot of examples in Victoria where we’ve embedded self-determination and where we have worked with Aboriginal community to give them control over the issues that are most important to them. I think about Aboriginal Victorian housing initiatives that have just continued to thrive that when we do that we see better outcomes for community. We see that gap that currently exists in opportunity in health closing through those programs and if we want to end that division and that gap that really exists between non-Aboriginal Victorians and Aboriginal Victorians and we need to get serious about that and that is about really acknowledging self-determination and embedding it in a Treaty.

Charles:
I want to come back though. I don’t think you really answered properly the question that I wanted, which was asked before and that is how can Treaty benefit all of Victoria.

Natalie:
I think by lifting up those that are most disadvantaged in our community, we are lifting up all of society. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, why do we continue to see First Nations people overrepresented in incarceration? Why do we see less university graduates? Why do we see less successful small businesses? At the heart of all of that is racism. At the heart of all of that is disadvantage and not engaging through an independent and self-determined lens to give people an opportunity and power. And I think that is the important thing.

I know a lot of Victorians out there would be questioning what does a treaty deliver for me personally. And look, it’s possible that a treaty existing may not even touch their lives, But as a society, I think we’ll see major benefits. What did concern me through the recent referendum and discussions that were happening,

Charles:

We’re going there are we? [laughs]

Natalie:

Yeah, well, just in backyards and pubs and everywhere. What concerned me was, you know, this constant reference to land grabs and so forth. And I just want to assure people that that’s not what this Treaty is about. What we’re talking about when we talk about Treaty is about the structures of organisations and governments and how we can make sure that First Nation people are in charge of those issues that affect them.

Charles:
This is something that Rueben Berg and Ngarra Murray, the Co-chairs have been heralding for a long time, and before that of course, Aunty Geraldine and Marcus Stewart…Let’s get back to the mechanics of things, because there would be some concern out there that given the financial relationship between the state government of the First Peoples‘ Assembly of Victoria, how can there be a guarantee of no collusion between this particular government as it’s a friendly government to the Treaty, and the Treaty process itself?

Natalie:
The key to that is our investment in a treaty authority as the independent organisation. And you know, let me reassure people as your listeners would know, government didn’t have a vote in who the Assembly members were or are, whether it’s the first time around or the second time around. They are very independent, strong willed, very open and accessible people in the roles that they’ve taken on. And I want to thank them for that because it’s not an easy role to take on and our government has not had a vote in that process.

We’ve helped set up the structure and fund it, but it’s certainly run very independent of government. So I think listeners can be assured that certainly the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria are very much an independent body. Government is working overtime over this summer, quite frankly, to work across all of our departments to prepare for Treaty and to also prepare for our responses and input into the Yoorrook Justice Commission

Charles.
When you say prepare for Treaty, that can be taken in a multitude of ways. What does preparation for Treaty across the departments actually look like? What does that entail?

Natalie:
It’s entailed us identifying people within each department to be trained to understand what Treaty is about, but also for those contact points to be able to provide information as requested by the Yoorrook Justice Commission from those departments. So we’ve made that investment. We’ve got that structure now in place across every one of our departments. And we’ve got those people working together to identify opportunities for when we’re negotiating Treaty to be able to give us quick advice in regards to whatever’s put on the table during negotiations. We don’t want to be in negotiations and say, oh gee, we hadn’t considered that or we can’t give you an answer right now. We need to be able to have prepared properly to come to the table, to be able to negotiate and that.

Charles:
And you see a tough fight ahead, though, really. Because, I mean, the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria has said from the very start, even before that with Aunty, Jill, nothing is off the table. And you know that they’re going to go hard. Regardless of the fact that the government’s funded. So are you preparing yourself for a tough fight?

Natalie:
Well, we’ve gone through the process of negotiating, having a negotiation framework, yeah, to start with. So we know what the boundaries are. We know that the people coming to the table have the authority because there’s nothing worse and being in negotiations on any matter and someone turns around and says, oh, hang on a minute, I don’t speak for those people or I can’t deliver that. It undermines the whole process. So we’ve kind of done all the groundwork around having agreement about who has the authority to come to the table. How do you prove that? But also the preparation so that when you come to the table, you can actually deliver or be realistic about what you can deliver it during those negotiations for the outcomes. So I’m not saying that’s not going to be without challenge, but I’m confident.

Charles:
Just a challenge, minister. Just a challenge.

Natalie:
Well, a number of challenges.

Charles:
Let’s get on to communications, because this is something that obviously I think everyone’s aware of this as a result of the kerfuffle that arose during the referendum and the conservative media certainly put its. But it’s two bobs worth in during the referendum coming up with all sorts of lies, as did conservative politicians and those who were against the referendum. I I’ve spoken to the Assembly a number of times about how they’re going to work to prepare community. I’m talking about the broader community, about the truth of the Treaty process, about the fact that people are not going to lose their backyards, they’re not going to hand have to hand over their land to Traditional Owners or the United Nations, as we heard during the flamin’ referendum. But what’s the State Government doing to prepare the Community Victoria in preparation for the forthcoming statewide Treaty and the local Treaties?

Natalie:
I actually think we’ve done a lot of preparation already and that is with the agreement sector by sector that we’ve reached with the peak bodies, Aboriginal peak bodies that we’ve got in place. Whether that’s in regards to direct arrangements between say our Department of Land and Planning doing work over many, many years with different Traditional Owner groups around say, fire management, land management and waterway catchment advice. But there’d be more than 10 agreements that currently exist across our departments and governments around arrangements to consult and embed self-determination.

And I think about the one that we’ve got in health, the agreement we’ve got with Aboriginal community in education and I think that is absolutely fundamental groundwork. The agreements that we’ve reached in those, the outcomes that we’ve been able to reach in those like in our education. One being able to close that gap of First Nations kids attending kinder that has come about because of an agreement that we struck almost 10 years ago now in the education space. This is the groundwork that goes into Treaty and how we build on that. So there’s a lot of things that have been tested out, but they are limited by, I don’t know, 4 to 6 to 8 year agreements and that needs to become standard practice.

And of course I don’t think a Treaty is going to be stagnant. I think there will be opportunities to continuously check in as part of that and that’s why we’re going to have the authority to hold parties to account to its implementation, but also to say, OK, how do we revisit this element. And I think looking at all of those agreements we’ve got and we’ve reached across government now around the delivery of services and how budgets allocated is a great start towards our Treaty.

Charles:
But how do you combat the forthcoming furore that will come from the conservative media and the conservative side of politics? Because they must be feeling really positive with themselves right now. The success they had in 2023 with the referendum, certainly the government and the Assembly have got to be thinking about how do we combat this because you’ve got to have the community on your side.

Natalie:
Absolutely. And we need to dispel the lies and the myths that will be generated that are already being generated post the referendum around what a Treaty will mean. And like everything else, it’s all about transparency and truth and getting that out there as far and wide as we possibly can. And of course, we’ve got some ideas that we’re working on around a better communications to all Victorians around our process of Treaty and what it means to them. But I think most importantly is how we dispute those myths and lies that will come about. And really, education is the key to that.

Charles:
And of course not. Listening to Sky News with Paul Murray, Peter Credlin and Andrew Bolt, I don’t want you to comment on that, Minister. Minister Natalie Hutchins, I want to thank you so much indeed for your time.

Natalie.
Thank you. Thanks.

Charles Pakana (VAN):

Our next guest on this episode of the podcast is Dja Dja Wurrung man Uncle Rodney Carter, who along with Aunty Esme, Bamblett are Co-chairs the Elders Voice of the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria. Well, Uncle Rodney, thanks so much indeed for joining us here on the podcast today.

Uncle Rodney Carter:
Thank you, Uncle Charles.

Charles:
Rodney, let’s get right into it. The Assembly has stated for years, ever since 2019 pretty well. Or 2020 when the idea of the Elder’s voice came up, that one of the key roles of the Elder’s voice would be to provide cultural authority to the work of the Assembly. So what precisely does that mean, given that most of us think, well, the elected members of the Assembly already have that cultural authority because they’ve been elected by mob or those taking reserved seats appointed by their own TO group. So once again, cultural authority. What does it mean in this context?

Uncle Rodney:
I think first Charles, we think about authority as opposed to authoritarian is a word and what sits around that. And for me and I think to the beauty of what Elders bring and the Elders Voice is this idea of empowerment. I have this ability as authority. How do I usefully apply that to the benefit of others, not to the benefit of me, so the individual. So we think of us as people what we understand very variably across our culture and our experiences. It’s now about trying to, I think, use forms of influence and power to embed the plural of self and for us as community and to be true to now, what are our norms, our traditions, the way of being for us as a people, and we can be expressive. So for me, that cultural authority is probably true to this idea of sensibly using power and influence as authority, but it’s unique to us because it’s our cultural authority.

Charles:
Now, one of the other things that the Assembly’s been stating is that the Elder’s Voice will also provide ethical advice. So how do you see that working out? And are there any particular instances where you see that that may be particularly important that ethical advice from Victorian Elders?

Uncle Rodney:
Yeah. Yeah. So I think in any basis of thinking about ethics, again there is an idea that it it’s the rightness, it’s the right way to do something. And how it aligns, I think with how we would describe our values as a people and good value. So ethical decision making can be as simple and I think this will happen for us as a people. It’s another measure or another lens of looking at what decisions and actions are being made.

So we share a responsibility now around that decision and so I think just jumping to the thought of what our Elders are and what the Elders Voice could be, it’s the reverence almost in the respect to the wise, the knowledge holders those by age and age isn’t an exact measure of being an Elder but what we know from the longevity of ourselves. We have more experiences we have a greater wealth of experience and so to be an Elder, to be in this decision-making process I think you know it could be simple. Of course, this is going to add considerable value in making ethical decisions that are good for all.

Charles:
But we need to clarify also because the Elders Voice, even though it’s going to be providing that cultural authority and ethical guidance, really cannot interfere with the decision making process of the Assembly. Is that right?

Uncle Rodney:
Yeah, yeah. And I think this will be challenging for some people to understand that in all forms I think of governance and we even use the term, you know, Elders counsel and that sort of stuff across community, orgs and community. We can’t intervene and meddle in governance, the machinery of decision making, but we can add greater depth and value to allow others to provide a form of contribution and influence. So I think what we might see as the years go forward and what this Elder’s Voice as an identity might look like, it’ll be a highly respected and valued contributor to our decision making processes. But it’s not, I think, immediately an umpire or referee….

Charles:
We’ve got the Treaty Authority for that already..

Uncle Rodney:
Yeah.

Charles:
The process of actually putting together the Elder’s Voice seems to have been taking a long time. I know when I was at the Assembly in early in 2020, we were talking about that. Now that was pretty well four years ago. Unc, let me put you in the hot seat here. What’s taking so long? Given when you look at it, when Aunty Jill was the Commissioner, she turned the Assembly round and got it happening, you know, in in less than a year, what’s taking the Assembly so long to set up the Elders Voice?

Uncle Rodney:
So I won’t immediately excuse myself, Chares, but I’d say I’m a newbie, you know, to the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria. But you know, I recognise the significant work that’s been done by others to get to this point. I think sometimes we find it really hard to easily find achievable solutions. The steps needed to implement to create for me coming on in in a sense and contributing now as a Co-chair to the Elder’s Voice, the Elders in all the documentation, the engagement we’ve seen today they want something. They want it… and so I felt reasonably comfortable to be supporting management the Assembly for us to implement action. We’ve had a consultative report created and you look at the thread and the consistent messaging mentioned by Elders, they want a body, if that’s a way to permit something that they can come together formally and talk about business in the in the Treaty or Treaties.

Charles:
So when can we expect to see something happening? Yeah, so you and Aunty Esme are now the co-chairs. And the reason we don’t have Aunty Esme on is we’ve got her coming on another episode in a couple of weeks. So keeping you right in the hot seat, give us a bit of a timeline or a hoped for timeline, an optimistic one?

Uncle Rodney
Yeah. So we’ve sought for people to nominate expressing interest at the end of last year in December. So that was activated in a newsletter and some updates have gone out in the middle of January, the application for nominations will close and there’ll be an assessment around those nominations. Those people we can’t immediately in governance structures have everyone. Of course, you know in an ideal world it’s it’s probably too noisy a place to  be in. But what we need to do is support the cross conversations communications between Elders. So hopefully by February we’ll have a better idea who might sit in this next iteration of the Elder’s Voice and we call it a Standing Group at the moment for legal reasons. You know I don’t think there’s you know anything to be worried about in a in a name. It’s important, I think, around the values and the identity of bringing the wise people together to be representative of the Elder’s Voice, and we’re looking at a couple of Elders from each electoral region.

Charles:
So 5 electoral regions across the state. Yeah, so we’re talking two specifically. Yeah. So 10 in all, they’ve closed off now because the time this goes to air, that will be well past mid-January. So nominations have closed off now. You’re going to be evaluating them in February. Could we expect to see a functioning Elders Voice by realistically June 2024?

Uncle Rodney:
Try and crystal ball that. I think that’s achievable. Seriously there’s things that have been put in place with the chambers, the Assembly itself, the members discussing what we’ve proposed. So what’s being implemented at the moment. So it’s really it’s this actioning that takes place. I think one of the not delaying factors in this is that, you know not everyone in a sense could be at this immediate table, this group. So it it’s trying to help people to understand how do you talk to those that are to be representative of you, of us in the Elder’s Voice sort of context. So we’re really conscious of the work that needs to be done around that.

Charles:
And what about your role going forward? Because once the Elder’s Voice is in place, what do you and Aunty Esme do by way of maintaining it and ensuring there’s a passage of information from the Elder’s Voice back to the board and to the other committees within the Assembly.

Uncle Rodney:
Yeah I think there will always have to be some sort of need I think for the connection between you know what is the chambers, the Assembly as members. You know fortunately I was a community member elected in the electoral region within Treaty itself. Now you know it has these sort of committee type structure. So the Elders Voice in a sense is that in two chairs this idea of Co-chairs and you have gender representation so you know it’s the woman and the and the man. So there’ll be some need for the legal connection.

I think going forward though, the exciting thing would be after this standing group, what does the unique identity of Elders Voice look like now, maybe as a body in its own right? And for me, I just think that would be amazing to establish that where we haven’t seen this created. I think Victoria or Australia, others might say that they’ve got Elders Councils and those sort of things Charles. But I think what we’re doing is creating something really unique and can be powerful. I believe and advise, give guidance on many matters around Treaty, because a Treaty can be anything.

Charles:
Absolutely. But how you’ve touched on this point, but how can we be sure that the ten elected or appointed Elders will actually have not influence over the policies and the decisions of the of the Chamber and the Assembly? But how can we be assured that their voices will be heard?

Uncle Rodney:
Yeah, I think being true to accountability, transparency and doing what you said you would do and putting out there what is the right thing to be doing and transparency. So when you use the term we, I think there’s a safeness like because we’re in the room, this whole idea of Treaty and management and Assembly, we need to be really conscious of the outward communication to people, specifically to the Elders Voice and the representatives of that and ensuring that the conversations from Elders, their voice more broadly comes into the representative structure. So accountability, I think being true to that is really important, Charles. And look, it will be measured I think and will be held to account around how we do this going forward. So just need to get on with it.

Charles:
And do you ever consider that you and Aunty Esme may well be the meat in the sandwich between the Elder’s Voice and the Assembly? Because things will go wrong. There’s no doubt about it. There will be decisions made by the Assembly that will be not taken on well by the Elder’s voice. So do you fear a little bit, or are you concerned at all that you will be that much battered buffer as the Co-chairs between the Assembly and the Elder’s Voice?

Uncle Rodney:
I think in that as an example, it’s inevitable. I think there’s an inevitability in all of this, but in in forms of our leadership and our participation, we need solutions. They need to be achievable. The conversation is around, there’s so many ideas, what’s a good idea. Well, we need to unpack how we going to do that and  if we can’t immediately in a collaboration decide and figure out the steps to the achievability, well then it’s not practical. So this is a really not sophisticated adult conversation and I think it’s something where people need to sit at the table and see it through and persevere, tolerate, be courteous and trying to understand this idea of, you know, it’s an idea.

And then sometimes those ideas might when you talk about them enough, they might be set aside or that actually wasn’t you know, too practical or great idea in the scheme of things. And we haven’t seen a lot of that. I think with our mobs more broadly and I think this is probably in our governance Treaty going forward. I think this is a step we need to take in in the way we create governance and leadership for us as a as a people that become an example to all others. Because Treaty as much as it it’s for us, it’s about us. We’re going to need the wider community to try and have some degree of faith in us as a people that you know this is the right thing to do. We know it’s a good thing because people will be self into it..

Charles:
Well, we’re going a bit off track here, but no, no, but you brought that up. And earlier in the program I talked along the same lines with Minister Hutchins that how can the Assembly do work now to make sure that the greater community does have faith in the Assembly because it’s not just the Aboriginal community that you need support from, it’s the broader Victorian community. And I know we’re really going outside your remit here and I’m happy for you to say, look, we’re not going to answer that right now, but it is an ongoing concern. Do you think that having the Elders counsel, the Elders Voice, whether it’s a standing group or whatever, will contribute to providing a greater understanding, a greater faith from the general community in the work of the assembly?

Uncle Rodney:
I think so, Charles. When we create this Elder’s Voice, I think it will have a usefulness beyond Treaty.
Yeah, I think if we get this sort of right, and I really sort of believe it’s not in the remit of what we’re doing now. We want to create the Elder’s Voice for Treaty and that sort of stuff. But it gives us a unique opportunity to do something I think greater and grander and I think Assembly itself I think in a sense…There’s elective representation. So now there’s a duty of care and obligation to those that gave faith in you to do something.

Charles:
I quite agree with you. I think obviously it’s something that’s almost within the DNA of the Assembly to go beyond the remit, I mean the Assembly in calling for the formation of the Yoorrook Justice Commission.

Uncle Rodney:
Exactly, it went well beyond the remit that was laid out in the in the act. So look, I couldn’t agree with you more

Charles:

We’ll call it quits here because we have run out of time. We will be speaking again further down the road, especially when it comes closer to formalising the Elders Voice. So Uncle Rodney Carter, thanks so much indeed.

Uncle Rodney:
Thank you very much, Charles. Look forward to Yarning again.