Black Duck Foods website

Charles Pakana (Victorian Aboriginal News):

In a very special interview today, I’m joined by Yuin, Bunurong and Tasmanian man, Uncle Bruce Pascoe, and we’re recording this interview on the Wallagaraugh River at Mallacoota, about six hours northeast of Melbourne on beautiful, beautiful country.

Uncle Bruce, thanks for speaking with me today.

Bruce Pascoe:

Oh, it’s a pleasure.

Charles:

Unc, we’re not going to go into all the stuff that’s gone on over the years. That’s been done to death by the media. But what I’d like to know, and I know my audience would like to know, is what’s happening with Uncle Bruce Pascoe right now? Let’s be frank, 77-year-old man, and you’ve still got a lot of things you want to do. What’s happening right now? What’s consuming all your time?

Bruce:

Well, the farm takes up a fair bit of the time, and community stuff is pretty busy all through the year. But right now it’s very busy, so that takes up a lot of my time.

But I’d like to be spending more time on writing my books, the few that I think really need to be written. The one I’m working on at the moment is about how colonialism works against indigenous people, not just here, but around the world.

Charles:

And we’ll come to the books in a minute, because I do want to talk about the farm. That was the first thing you mentioned.

Now the farm is being used almost, correct me if I’m wrong, to be a proof of concept of a lot of the things you put forward in Dark Emu. So talk to us a bit about that and what you’re hoping to achieve.

Bruce:

You know, Dark Emu had a pretty good run, but I couldn’t see that a lot of the non-Aboriginal advocates of the book understood what was really going on. There were a lot of chefs and restaurateurs who got very excited about our foods and wanted to try them in their restaurant, all of this stuff. Not one of them at that stage said to me, “Oh, but how Aboriginal people going to benefit from this?” None of them had thought about that.

The reason for that is that Australia’s got such a poor understanding of its own history that Australia hasn’t had to embrace this idea before. So I bought the farm only a couple of K upstream from where I was living at the time.

Charles:

This is a 500-acre farm, isn’t it?

Bruce:

140 acres.

Charles:

140-acre farm.

Bruce:

Yeah. I did that so that we could demonstrate that Aboriginal people were still in touch with their traditional culture, the food culture, so that the grasses and the tubers that Yuin people would’ve been eating 170 years ago, we’re still growing and eating.

Charles:

So what ones in particular are we talking about?

Bruce:

We’ve got kangaroo grass and spear grass, wallaby grass, weeping grass. We’ve got our own names for those, of course, but a lot of people want you to give them not just the English name, the Latin name as well.

Charles:

No, but let’s leave the botanical names alone for a bit, shall we, please?

Bruce:

Yeah.

Charles:

But how are these spear grasses, wallaby grasses, how were they typically used pre-colonization?

Bruce:

They were used for all sorts of things, but mainly for bread, Johnnycakes, loaves of bread. Not looking like a Coles white in a plastic bag or anything, but little cob loaves, really dense loaves.

That’s why when we’re using it now, we split it up with normal baking flour because 10, 20% of our flour, you’ll still taste and smell in the cooking of the bread. Our old people would’ve used it in fish and all sorts of things, as a stuffing for fish mixed up with the herbs.

Charles:

Like we might use rice nowadays, you’re saying?

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah.

Charles:

Right, okay. All right.

Bruce:

Those sheds down there, there where we do all the processing. We store the grain in there to dry, then we process it and then we grind the grain into flour and sell it on our website Black Duck Foods.

Charles:

We’ll have a link for that on the Vic Aboriginal News website as well to accompany this interview.

Unc, how much are you actually producing in a year?

Bruce:

Well, for the first time, what we sell in terms of flour and tubers is paying for one and a half wages on the farm.

Charles:

But you typically have more than one and a half people working on the farm, don’t you?

Bruce:

Yeah. We’ve currently got two, so we have to seek our funding through philanthropic organizations and things like that, and so far, we’re doing it. We did have as many as six or seven Aboriginal employees working on the farm. Currently, got two. Simply budgetary requirements and things.

But come summertime, we’re going to need another two or three. Because the harvest will be big this year, and we’ll need an extra machine running to get the amount of grass that we’re going to have.

Charles:

How many acres do you have under, we’ll use the colonial word, cultivation?

Bruce:

We’ve got about 101, 102 on the farm that is we’ve got grass on or tubers, one or the other.

Charles:

So that’s over two-thirds of the farm itself is dedicated.

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah. But probably a little bit more than that.

There’s a little bit of forest as well, and we use the forest. The fellas were burning in the forest today, and planting tubers inside the forest because that’s how the old people did it.

Charles:

But what do you want to get out of this? Obviously at 77, and we spoke before the interview, at 77, you don’t really want to go and start a whole new career. What’s the motivation behind this, aside from the obvious, which is proving that which you wrote in Dark Emu can actually happen?

Bruce:

Yeah. The proof of Dark Emu is more the mythical country archeology.

This is not so much to prove it. It’s to make sure that we’ve got our foot in the door. Because we don’t want to be told by a judge, like Justice Olney told the Yorta Yorta, “That your culture has been washed away by the tide of history.” And I could see, despite all the enthusiasm for Dark Emu and all the people wanting to come out here and have an Aboriginal bloody experience, none of them were thinking about our people into the future.

So if they weren’t going to do it, we have to do it. So the whole farm is to demonstrate that Aboriginal people are in contact with their food culture, and we’re determined to be employed and to be the employers. We don’t want to be someone else’s Jackey Jackey.

Charles:

So a degree of self-determination?

Bruce:

Yeah. One of our workers has bought his own house last week, and that was one of the stated aims in our constitution was that our people would get paid well for hard work so that they could become independent. So if we do that, buy our own house, buy our own car, free ourselves from the dole, then we become really independent, and the government can’t touch us.

Charles:

You’ve mentioned that there are some books that you want to write, and before the interview you said there are three books at least that you’d like to write. You’re running a business here with the farm. How are you going to have time? One of these people who are working here, do you have them lined up to eventually take over the farm? How big do you see this operation eventually becoming?

Bruce:

We’ve got a good Ngiyampaa man working here, who I hope will take over the running of the farm. We’re doing everything we can to provide him with the kind of training that he’s going to need and the security that he’s going to need.

There are other people we’ve met up and down the coast who could do this job, but they’ve got their own businesses to run. So we need someone here who can run the business side of it.

It takes a long time to understand how to run a business, and it’s very demanding. You’re chasing money, but you’ve also got to look after money. So you need a little bit of accounting skills, you need to have skills with handling employees, and there’s a lot of training goes into it.

But the whole idea of it is just that no one else is making flour. No Aboriginal group is making flour. No Aboriginal group is harvesting and selling mamadyan. So the people on this farm here, they’re the knowledge holders now of those skills.

So we want to be able to pass it over to them. And what becomes of it after that doesn’t worry me as long as Aboriginal people benefit. If someone makes a million dollars out of it, buys themselves a flash car, that’s not going to be any of my business, but as long as our people have a chance to become independent.

Charles:

Is this something you want, though? Did you want the knowledge that you’re gaining here, do you want that spread far and wide?

Bruce:

Yeah, we do. A lot of people say, “Oh, you’ve got to keep your method a secret.” “Who’s a lot of people?” “Oh, you know, look, people in the trade, other Aboriginal people.”

But old Uncle Max Harrison, he always said, “If I’m going to hang on to my culture, I’ve got to give it away.” I sounds like a confusing concept, but what he meant by that was he’s got to share it because if he doesn’t share it, it’s gone when he passes. And he’s gone now, that old man, but he passed it on. He gave it to us, and we’re going to give it on to other people as well.

Like Pete Cooley at IndigiGrow in Sydney, he’s such a generous man, and he’s sitting on what is probably a million-dollar industry. But he just keeps giving it away, and it’s typical Blackfella.

Charles:

Who’s buying your product? I imagine that people will get onto the Black Duck website and they’ll buy them for themselves at home. But what about restaurants? What about large concerns?

Bruce:

Yeah, look, we’ve been selling to a couple of restaurants in Melbourne, including Mabu Mabu, but we’ve got two bakeries, three bakeries down here, Honorbread in Bermagui, Wild Rye’s at Pambula and Wheatley Lane at Candelo.

Charles:

That’s a good plug for the monk.

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah. They need them, encouragement, because they’re putting their dollars where their mouth is. Unlike a lot of Australians who have not actually ever supported Aboriginal people, except when they win gold medals at the Olympic Games. These are people who’ve like Honor up at Bermie, she’s going out of her way to help us, but she also employs Aboriginal people.

You know, when I see that, I’ve always thought that woman was true blue, pardon the Australian expression. But I trusted her immediately because she was doing things that did not advantage her in any way. Whereas other business people will use a Blackface when it suits them, will use a Black employee as long as 7.30 Report would spruik it for them.

Charles:

Yeah, the old Blackcladding.

Bruce:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s disgusting. It’s everywhere. When you point out to people, that’s what they’re doing, they get really offended.

Charles:

Have you done that to people?

Bruce:

I’m my grandmother’s grandson, and so I was brought up to be polite. So I do tell people that, but in a way that they don’t… I’m trying not to hurt them.

Charles:

You’re a diplomat.

Bruce:

I’m trying to be, I’m trying to be. It’s very hard to live a Black life and not get hurt. I’m trying to do it the way the old people did it.

Charles:

How do you see that actually plays out? How do you see that the old people would have done it? We yarned a bit about that before the interview.

Bruce:

I listened to all the stories I’ve been told over my life. When you’re talking to people talking about what their grandfathers said to them and did, you find that it’s a much more gentle and generous sharing than is happening in some communities now.

I think some Aboriginal people are fighting their fights in a white way, and the Black way is quiet, it’s resilient and it’s long-lasting. And, most of all, it’s kind.

Charles:

Sort of how we see Uncle William Cooper.

Bruce:

Mate, Uncle William Cooper. Now, look, there should be a statue of him on every street corner in Melbourne and-

Charles:

Not just up on Yorta Yorta Country, but down here as well. I agree.

Bruce:

Yeah. Like when World War II was on and the Jewish people were copping a hammering, one man in Australia recognized what it was, was absolute brutality and racism. He called it for what it was, and he walked to Canberra and he went to the parliament and said, “You, mob, should be supporting Jewish people.” I think he’s such a great Australian, and we should model ourselves on people like that, Pastor Doug, people like that.

You know, I think of Lowitja O’Donoghue. I think of all those lovely ladies who worked so hard for the referendum, who gave their heart and soul and knife to it and had their faces smacked.

Charles:

Are we talking about the 1967 referendum or the most recent?

Bruce:

No. Well, you could talk about that one as well, but they were great, great people. But no, I’m talking about the one last year.

Charles:

How did that affect you?

Bruce:

Well, I knew what was coming.

Charles:

The no vote?

Bruce:

Yeah, because I wore a badge right through it. I was watching TV, which I don’t normally do, and I was watching how hard people like Pat Turner had to work and Pat Anderson, Rachel, Marcia, obviously.

Charles:

Thomas Mayo?

Bruce:

Oh, young Tommy.

Charles:

He’s a legend, isn’t he?

Bruce:

He’s an absolute legend, and the disrespect he got was appalling.

Charles:

Well, we’re not going to go there because if we go there, that means we’ve got to go there with you as well when we’ve said we’re not going to, at least for this interview.

Bruce:

Yeah. Well, look, I knew it was happening. I must admit I was surprised that it was 61% no. And I wasn’t surprised that our people voted 80% for it. Wasn’t surprised at all by that.

We were supposed to, if you followed the media, it was all Blackfellows are against this. What absolute crap. Our people were well and truly for it. The media didn’t display that because of the way the argument was conducted by the opposition.

People are blaming Albanese. What for? Upholding a promise that he gave to Aboriginal people? When should a politician be criticized for upholding a promise? They hardly ever do it.

Anyway, I knew it was coming, but the funny thing was, because we’re so remote and you know how remote we are because you’ve driven our track.

Charles:

It’s remote.

Bruce:

Older Blackfellows turned up here, day after bloody day for weeks after the referendum with no real excuse to be here. Like they just rock up, “Well, what are you doing here?” “I just wanted to have a cuppa tea.”

But what they wanted was to talk about the referendum. They wanted to get it off their chest. They wanted to have a good cry and get over it. But all of them, I had my cousins here and fellows from Narrung and Bairnsdale.

Charles:

How did it impact you personally, Unc?

Bruce:

I got a enormous kick in the guts. I don’t think I’ve recovered. I’m getting on with my business, with the things I’ve got to do.

I’m not as comfortable in my own country as I was. When I say my own country, I mean Australia. I’m very disappointed in Australia, and I’m more suspicious of Australians than I’ve ever been.

Charles:

Let me challenge you a little bit there. Shouldn’t you really be more suspicious and disappointed in the conservative elements, those that spread the misinformation, the lies and advocated against the voice?

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah. Of course, we have to be critical of that sector, and that’s not a big group, but we do-

Charles:

But they were bloody effective.

Bruce:

Yeah, they ran a very good campaign, but Australia let them.

Now, don’t let Australia get off the hook. 61% of Australians voted no against recognizing us as a First People of this country, and they knew if they had read the voice material that it wasn’t going to cost them a dollar. It was the most generous offer any Australian had ever had, and they knocked it back.

So don’t let Australians off the hook. Australia has to face up. It’s not the end of the world.

Charles:

But do you see a future voice?

Bruce:

Yeah, I do, and it’s not going to be like the Republic, which has been dead for 30 years or whatever it is. It’s not going to be like that. It’s going to come up again in the next 20 years.

Charles:

Constitutionally enshrined or legislated?

Bruce:

Constitutionally enshrined.

Charles:

Really? Do you think politicians would be that brave to give it another bash?

Bruce:

Well, I think it won’t be done entirely through referendums. There’ll be other means, but the next time around it’ll be Australians demanding it, not Aboriginal people.

Charles:

Let’s move away from that, and get onto the books. You’ve mentioned before there are three books that you really feel the need to write, and each one you mentioned previously takes you about a couple of years. Time to hurry up, Unc.

Bruce:

Yeah, I know. No, I’m very aware of it, which is why I’m trying to hurry up to pass this farm onto the community.

Charles:

So what books are we looking at? Can we share a bit of information on those?

Bruce:

Yeah, my oath. I’m doing a book on the stars. It’s not one that I counted in those three, but I’m actually working on the last draft of that right now.

But the next one I’m going to write, it’s called The European Mind, and it looks at the justification for Europeans colonizing, the world, which they did, the Spaniards, the British, the Dutch, the Danes.

Charles:

You’re talking about their own justification, self-justifications.

Bruce:

Yeah.

Charles:

Right.

Bruce:

How could a Christian people do what they did? If you read about what happened in Mexico to the Aztec, that was butchery, absolute butchery. How can Christians do it? I’m interested in those justifications, and it was for their own good. Have we heard that before in Australia?

Charles:

Of course.

Bruce:

“You were taken away from your parents for your own good, and because you are going to have a better life as a Christian than you’ll have as an indigenous person.” All these old tropes.

“You don’t do agriculture, so therefore you’re not using the land. So our Pope says that we can take the land from you. And if you object, we can kill you.”

You know, this is history. This is not fabrication. When that book comes out, if you reckon I’ve got a hammering after Dark Emu, watch out for this because they’ll be held to pay. But I’m in really good company, I think.

There was an Indian woman, Priya Satia, who wrote a book called Time’s Monster. It’s an absolute classic. She is a genius. I’m a hard worker. She is a genius. This book says so much about how the English behaved in their colonization and understands it, provides the logic for how they behaved. Not the justification for it, but what they thought they were doing, and I rely on that book an enormous amount.

Charles:

So you were saying that if you thought that there was a fair bit of, let’s say, throwback on you after Dark Emu, wait for this one, what are the sectors that you expect that to come from?

Bruce:

No, the same old people, you know, Andrew Bolton-

Charles:

Oh, we weren’t going to mention Andrew Bolton, Unc. Come on. Come on.

Bruce:

It’ll be interesting to see if he’s still around because he said the other day that he will resign if James Packer takes over the Murdoch Empire.

Charles:

Oh, goodness. Okay.

Bruce:

Well, go on, James, you know? Give the man a free kick.

But if it’s not Andrew Bolton, it’ll be someone else because they’re out there. They know they’ve got a 61% audience who read their stuff.

Charles:

Is that all it is for them, do you think? From your own perspective, is it just a matter of ratings, audience?

Bruce:

No. No, no, no. No, they’re raving racists, and they believe an idea of Australian history that is untenable. But they’re sticking to it, and they are going to hammer anyone else who objects to that history.

I’m copping a bit of pain now. I’m standing on bloody big shoulders of people who cop worse than me. I haven’t been shot in the back yet. I haven’t had my children taken off me. You know, I might suffer a bit of emotional pain, but compared to those old people, it’s nothing. So if people like that are attacking me, it means they’ve got to leave some other Blackfeller alone.

Charles:

What’s driving you? I mean, come on. You could lead an easier life. You’ve got a beautiful place to live here now. You could just take it easy. Why don’t you?

Bruce:

My mother and father were two of the most just people I’ve ever known. I’ve used that sentence before, but it’s true. They taught me how to treat other people.

My grandmother taught me how to resist. She told me when I was 11 that we’re sick of being poor, we’re sick being on bottom of the pile. The only way out is education so she was instrumental in me getting an education. Because I wanted to play football for Richmond, despite the fact that I was no good, but that was a dream I had for a long time.

But I always wanted to write, and I always wanted to write about our justice. In fact, that was the thing that drove me most, writing about Australian history and justice. I thought I wanted to be an AFL footballer. But then when I really thought about it, I was spending far more time writing and thinking about writing, than I was actually playing ordinary football.

So I was living a little bit of a dream, but my parents and grandparents had prepared me to be just and to stick up for the underdog and the old people, people like Uncle Alf, like Aunty Zelda, all those old people.

Charles:

Unc, couldn’t you say you’ve done enough, though? Because you have.

Bruce:

Well, I was going to say that those people had urged me on and Aunty Bunta, for instance, who read everything that I wrote while she was alive, they gave me instructions about what I have to do. “You can write. You like this stuff. We hate it. We never went to school. So that’s your job. You tell that story. You tell this story.”

Charles:

You’ve taken that on board, big time.

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I enjoy it. I love writing, so it’s not a problem for me. They’d say, “Write a letter to the Minister for Education, the Minister for Jails” or whatever they’re called, and I would do that.

But really what I wanted to do was tell those stories that they had told me, and that’s what I’m doing.

And I’m not finished. I haven’t told all those stories yet. There’s some I’ll never be able to tell because I’ve been asked not to.

There’s too much to do, and I don’t know too many Aboriginal people who did go gently into that good night. Most of the old people that I know like, say, Uncle Max, died with his boots on, still slugging it out in the middle of the ring, you know?

Charles:

You intend to do the same.

Bruce:

Yeah. I’ll hit the wire running.

Charles:

What are some of the other books you’ve mentioned? You’ve talked about the one that we didn’t talk about before, but you’ve still got three others, so give us a bit of a hint about what they might be.

Bruce:

Oh, well, they’re novels. I’ve just published a book called Imperial Harvest about war raging through Mongolia and down through Europe and the Mediterranean. It’s an anti-war novel trying to explain how war destroys, as if you need to say it, but apparently we do. Donald Trump seems to think that Iran will fire rockets at Israel tonight. Haven’t we got the Olympics to entertain ourselves? Do we need that?

So the next novel after that is called the Great Dividing Range, and it’s about Australia. Eventually, these people get to Australia and experience the racism and the brutality that Australian Aboriginal people experienced, and it’s been on my mind for 30 years. I’m looking forward to writing that.

Then there’ll be another novel after that. Oh, there’s plenty of things to do.

Charles:

You’ve got the next 20 or 30 years mapped out, haven’t you?

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah.

Charles:

Okay. Good luck to you on that.

Bruce:

Yeah.

Charles:

Unc, one of the things that you’ve mentioned that you wanted to yarn about was country, what it means to you, what it means to mob, what it means to Australia. Over to you on that one.

Bruce:

Well, our people looked after this place for 120,000 years, through all the ups and downs of climate change and difficulties, but they lived here very well. They lived here with full bellies and full minds. Our people were the best educated in the world. We spoke eight or nine languages each. We had an extraordinary lore, social and cultural lore that is hard to believe when you look at the world now.

How can you as a people, as humans, exist for 120,000 years without a world war, without a continental war? Those people had plenty of time to work it out and refine it, but they decided that each of the peoples would have their patch of land, that the Yuin would have this river down here as their border. They could cross it. They could go into Gunai Country and Dhudhuroa Country. They could go there as long as they asked politely, but they couldn’t take that land.

Even if their people were murdered by white people, they couldn’t take the land away. They could look after it until the old people came back. This is an incredibly strong lore because it means that our people spiritually and religiously and practically were able to maintain the longest civilization on earth.

Charles:

Do you think, though, realistically, that there’s any chance of those lessons being relearned and carried through into modern society? I’m being a devil’s advocate here.

Bruce:

They are being carried through. People like Uncle Max did it in his lifetime. Our culture and lore hung by a thread. One little boy survived a massacre on the Brodribb River. That little boy had a son, who he instructed in the lore, together with four other Aboriginal men. Those men gave it to Uncle Max and some other young lads as well. Uncle Max has given it to at least 150 Yuin men and unknown number of women.

He had some bits of information which was important to the women. They’ve taken their lore and gone and done what they need to do with it, and it’s none of my business. All I need to know is that it’s happening and all I need to do is respect their right to do that, but their culture’s alive.

If it’s alive down here, we don’t need to go up to Garma all the time and say, “Oh, you’re the real Blackfellows.” I love Garma. I think it’s fantastic, and I think the Yolngu just extraordinary people, but Yuin are extraordinary people, too, and so are Gunai and so are Wurundjeri, and so are all the other 400 peoples.

Charles:

But how do we get this lore and these lessons out to the broader community? It’s all well and good, and I’ll keep being the devil’s advocate for a while. It’s all well and good to share the stories and the learnings within mob, but it’s not mob that makes the decisions when it comes to the overall care of the country. I mean, unless we get something massive in a statewide treaty.

Bruce:

Look, I think it’s happening. It won’t happen in a way that will please everyone, and it won’t be the ideal. Nothing ever is in politics, but I think it’s going to happen.

I think treaty will come, and those people in Victoria who are working towards treaty, bless them. What a fantastic contribution to our life. They’re doing a mighty job. It may not look exactly like I would want it to look, but I’m not having to put up with the pain that those people are going through. So I respect what they’re doing and when they deliver it, I’ll respect that.

It’s happening. It’s going to happen nationally. It’s already happening in Queensland, for goodness’ sake.

Charles:

I know. Who would’ve thought?

Bruce:

Joh Bjelke-Petersen Country.

Charles:

Yeah.

Bruce:

So if it can happen in Queensland, it can happen anywhere, and it will be a way of Australians coming to know this ancient, ancient way of living. You know, we’re not going to be able to go back to 1788, but we can alter the way we behave now, which is what the European Mind is all about. Because it’s not just the politics of it, it’s not just the war. It’s the capitalism, and it’s the way Christianity is deployed. These things can change.

I love some of the Christians I’ve met, including Uncle Ossie at Eden who’s a mad Christian. I’m not. I’ve been burnt to the bloody core by Christianity, but Uncle Oz is a good Christian. I love him to death. He’s done it all his life. What a great man. He saved one of my old uncles. I can’t deny that old fella, and I can’t criticize him.

Charles:

There is change happening right across. I mean, if you look at the Anglican Church. We recently had Uncle Glenn Loughrey, a Wiradjuri man who’s been collated to be the Archdeacon, I believe, for Reconciliation, First Peoples Recognition and Treaty. So obviously, is this the sort of thing that you’re talking about when you’re alluding to change happening right across?

Bruce:

Yeah, yeah, I am, but I’m also alluding to things like capitalism changing. We don’t need to get rid of capitalism to improve the world. We just need to improve capitalism, and that will make a big difference.

We don’t need to get rid of Christianity. There’s nothing wrong with Christianity as an ethic. It’s about making sure that we practice it. If you’re practicing Christianity, you did not take children away. You did not bless people who have just shot 30 Aboriginal people, which is what happened in the Western District, weekend after weekend after weekend. You don’t do that. If you believe in Christianity, you practice Christianity. You do turn the other cheek. You do not kill you, you do not steal, you eschew greed, all of these things.

If Christians become Christian, if capitalism becomes a real economy, the world improves. This is what the European Mind is about. It’s not just about recording what’s happened in the past, the evils of colonialism. I want people to think about what caused colonialism and how we can go about never repeating it. And it depends on Christians being Christians and Muslims being Muslims.

Charles:

You do seem, after all that, though, to be quite the optimist.

Bruce:

I’m sitting in the sun on the bank of the Wallagaraugh River.

Charles:

It is beautiful country out here.

Bruce:

I’m on country. I’ve had the old people down here, who have been around here, and they’ve smoked this house. They’ve smoked the country. You know, I’ve had every advantage, and I’m sitting on country in the winter sun. Why wouldn’t I be an optimist? With all the stuff that’s going on, I know that’s peripheral.

What keeps me going is hearing those palavers because they’re talking about something’s happening on the hillside over there, and they’re not happy about it. They’re going to tell everybody. So every bird in the forest, when those palavers call, turns around to see what’s going on, and I’m part of that. I’m just a bandy-legged palaver. The Crimson rosella that is up there now, when that happens, he looks over there, but he also looks at me. “What’s that fella going to do? Is it really important? He’d get up if it was really important.” Because they’re all watching me. I think I’m watching them, but they’re watching me.

Charles:

And you believe that this is happening right across the country? It’s a sign of greater things and better things for the country?

Bruce:

Yeah, it is, and it has been happening since time immemorial here. Since we separated from Gondwanaland, that’s been happening. Been happening in a very livable way. It’s a very beautiful life, and I love that life. I’m not a Pollyanna. I know the problems in the world, but I also think that our lore, the Aboriginal lore, is so spiritually deep, that applied to even modern life, it’ll make a difference.

You know, a lot of Australians who wanted to fall in love with their country, and even some of that 61% who voted against the referendum, they’re craving to be Australian. They want to be Australian. Well, you can be, but you’ve got to be a true Christian, if you want to do that.

Charles:

Uncle Bruce Pascoe, until next time, and there will be a next time, I know. Thank you so much indeed for your time.

Bruce:

Oh, thank you.