Charles Pakana:

On Wednesday the 28th of May 2025, the Dja Dja Wurrung Clans Aboriginal Corporation announced that as a collective it was ready to seek a treaty that would reflect the aspirations and priorities of its people. Joining me today is the Dja Dja Wurrung Reserved Seat Holder at the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria, Djaran Murray-Jackson. Djaran, brother, thanks for joining me today.

Djaran Murray-Jackson:

No worries. Thanks for having me, Unc.

Charles:

The move towards getting treaty ready and registering with the Treaty Authority, we now know that DJAARA is the first of traditional owner groups right across the state, we can actually say right across the country, to start entering into treaty negotiations. Tell us a little bit about the lead-up and the work that’s been involved in getting yourself ready to that point, that historic point.

Djaran:

Yeah, thanks, Unc, and it’s an exciting day for Dja Dja Wurrung Peoples, and it’s the first steps on our local treaty journey. And for those of you tuning in online Djandak, which is Dja Dja Wurrung country, it’s the Bendigo area in Central Victoria. Yeah, and I hope that my community ancestors are proud of today as I am. In terms of the work that we’ve done leading up to today, I was lucky enough to be elected in 2023 and I took over from Trent Nelson who was the first Dja Dja Wurrung Reserve seat holder, and he did a body of work himself for three years. And those last members actually set us up for success with the frameworks that they created. So hats off to him. Once I was elected, I took it on myself that we really need to get the mob on board with treaty because I saw what it could do because I used to be an ex-staffer at the Assembly as well.

Charles:

That’s right. Yeah, I remember

Djaran:

I could see the value in treaty and actually going after it. So the first thing that I wanted to organize was a whole group treaty gathering so we could actually just have the yarn and I can update the mob. So it was important that we brought the whole mob together. I update them on all the amazing work that Trent and the other members did and told them, “This is our chance to actually get some great outcomes for the mob.” And then from that, they authorized me to go through the process of having family group meetings, which we haven’t been able to organize this year because family groups, they’re awfully busy all throughout the year.

Charles:

Yeah, I can imagine.

Djaran:

From that, I did a lot of work in the background in terms of getting self-determination fund money, so we have a treaty officer now at DJAARA as well who helps me with all the corporation stuff that we need to get through. And then from that, we caught up with the Treaty Authority in September last year the first time, and they told us the steps we had to do to satisfy minimum standards.

Charles:

What were some of the challenges that you recognized in those steps? And just for those audience members who may not understand the Treaty Authority, they’re essentially the body of independent people who oversee the process of treaty here in Victoria statewide and local. So yeah, Djaran, what were some of the challenges that you and your mob saw?

Djaran:

We’re quite lucky because we automatically meet minimum standards due to our RSA from the Traditional Owner Settlement Act. So it was a little bit easier for us, it was more about gathering the evidence of how we actually do meet minimum standards. So to be honest with you, it wasn’t probably as hard as it would be for some unrecognized groups. So yeah, it was actually quite a nice process. And the beauty of the Treaty Authority is it’s five black fellas, it’s added at the court system. It doesn’t cause any conflict. Yeah, the whole process actually ran quite smoothly and we were probably the Guinea pigs to be in the first group going … .

Charles:

Well, this is what I want to ask you about. You’re not at the leading edge, you’re at the bleeding edge.

Djaran:

Yeah.

Charles:

Was there a degree of reluctance to be the first or was there a point of pride, “We’re going to be up there, we’re going to show the rest of the state how it’s done”?

Djaran:

It came out quite strongly from that whole group gathering that I had within the first six months of my term that the mob really wanted to be the first ones to actually go through the process and actually lead by example for the rest of the state. And we sort of did something similar in terms of the Traditional Owner Settlement Act as well. We were one of the first to get our RSA, so we really just wanted to get moving and take into account the political climate. We’re not sure what’s going to happen next election.

Charles:

Absolutely.

Djaran:

So we want to make sure that we’re as well-prepared as we can be.

Charles:

And that also brings up something else because, obviously, we’ve got a state election in November of 2026. You guys want to get something over the line well ahead of that time. It’s important, I think, for the audience to understand that just because you may be getting a treaty signed with the state government before November of next year, it’s not going to be the end of the treaty process for DJAARA, is it?

Djaran:

No. Well, I think the treaty process will just become part of the furniture soon, as part of Victoria, sort of similar to how the Traditional Owner Settlement Act has just been there since, I think it’s 2010 or a bit before that now. So I think the treaty process will be quite similar and it’ll be there for generations to come. And the way I see it, treaty is a living book and you can add chapters to it as you go along. So maybe in future generations they’ll notice that we need to negotiate something different and they’ll be able to use the treaty process to do that.

Charles:

Well, as Rueben Berg has said on so many times, he wants treaty to be just part of the everyday lexicon of Victoria, if not Australia. What are some of the things that you’re looking to introduce? And we yarned a bit about this before we pressed the record button, but there are three key things that you’re looking to introduce in this first treaty with the state government. Let’s walk through those.

Djaran:

Yeah. Well, the first thing that comes to mind that I’m pretty passionate about is caring for country. And at DJAARA, I think most of the state knows that we do a pretty amazing job at caring for country, and it’s about expanding our capability so we can care for all country and then we can make it happy and healthy for all of us to enjoy who live on Djandak and who might be visiting as well. The second one for me that I heard from community and some of the yarns that I’ve been having is caring for Elders. At the moment, there’s not really a space for them to go back and live back on Djandak. So is it an Elders facility? Is it assisted living? That’s for us to decide and negotiate.

Charles:

And you’re talking about something like ACEs and Rumbalara?

Djaran:

Yeah, something like that. So that’s been discussed a few times, yarned to the mob. And then one thing that’s really close to my heart, I’ve got a four-month-old daughter at home and I hope that through these treaty negotiations that she’ll grow up strong in her culture and identity and she’ll be able to speak her language fluently and she’ll be able to share that knowledge and strength with the rest of Victoria as well.

Charles:

Well, this is something that Aunty Jill Gallagher spoke so often about when she was the Victorian Treaty Advancement Commissioner. Whenever she was asked about, “What do you see for treaty?” One of the first things she ever said was, “I want to see language hubs and all the different language groups right across Victoria.” So that’s obviously something that you share as well, brother.

Djaran:

Yeah, it’s very important to me. We had some deadly Maori fellow here yesterday and he was talking about some of the Maori universities that they have set up across New Zealand, I think there’s three of them now. And he was telling me that two of the Maori students there were just yarning. They were talking in English first and then somehow the conversation just went to Maori and they just kept yarning in Maori. That just blew my mind, and I would love to see that in Victoria that our mobs like Dja Dja Wurrung just start yarning in language and it just continues the conversation.

Charles:

How do you see that that would actually be enforced or reinforced by the treaty process?

Djaran:

I think for me it’s about getting the mob to learn the language first, and then once we’ve done that, then we can share it with everyone else. So I think it’s about making sure we have the right funding and we have the right research that’s done and make sure that we have the right language too.

Charles:

So language is obviously one of the main things that was taken away from our people due to invasion or colonization, whatever people want to call it. What are some of the other key aspects of culture that you would like to see brought back to life or brought out from the hiding almost as a result of the treaty process?

Djaran:

Yeah, I think the big one for me is ceremony, it’s massive. And at the moment, we only do ceremony for special occasions. I would like to do ceremony just for the hell of it, just because we just want to. I know we do special treaty ceremonies through the Assembly. We have one coming up on Dja Dja Wurrung country soon at Mount Alexander, and I’m pretty excited for that, but it’d be good just to do it as a mob too.

Charles:

What about the involvement of non-Aboriginal people in learning language, in getting experience of culture? Obviously, it’s got to be mob first. That’s a no-brainer because that journey, it’s going to be a painful journey and a difficult journey, but do you see that this will embrace the broader community as well in being able to learn language and be embraced by it, almost?

Djaran:

The way I see it, treaty is a gift not just for us, but also for all Victorians to share in. And it’s also our culture that we can share. Once we are able to grow ourselves in it, we’re able to share it with the wider public too. And I keep using New Zealand as an example, you see over there lots of people who aren’t Maori can speak the language there.

Charles:

Yeah, of course.

Djaran:

I’m hopeful that maybe one day Victoria will be pretty similar if not all of Australia.

Charles:

I’m aware, Djaran, that DJAARA has a number of understandings, relationships, and partnerships with local governments on your country. And you were saying to me before there are around about 16 local governments on Djandak. Obviously, the big one is Bendigo. There have been some amazing bits of news coming out from there recently, which we’ll look at further on down the track. What have you done by way of engaging with local governments in the lead up to this press release that came out at four o’clock this morning?

Djaran:

We have great relationships with all our councils across all of Djandak. Uncle Rodney has been pivotal in that sort of work, Uncle Rodney Carter.

Charles:

Uncle Rodney Carter, legend of a fellow.

Djaran:

He’s a deadly fellow. He’s managed to build great relationships with all the local councils. And we’ve done so many different projects with different councils on our country, which has been great to see. Yeah, in terms of the announcement, we did send the embargo to all local councils as well, and we also did a report recently on what a local traditional owner treaty could mean for councils. So we reattached that and sent it out to them as well.

Charles:

And what we’ll do for the audience is we’ll see what we can do about finding out more about that document that went out to the local governments and we’ll share that further on down the track as well. There’s obviously a lot to talk and share about the treaty process. You mentioned before that treaty was seen also as a gift to the broader community. And it would be fair to say that a lot of the work that DJAARA has done over the years, and of course, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Forest Gardening Strategy. And I spoke to Uncle Rodney about that a year or two ago, which was a mind-blowing concept of managing bushland. Do you see that treaty will really benefit the broader community? Let’s bring it back to that first point you made, which is caring for country.

Djaran:

Yeah, well, just last week I went to Bendigo City Council. We went to a new town square that’s being built and DJAARA has actually developed a landscape space there before they develop the health services and things that’ll go around that. And deadly Michael Burke did some scar trees there, which I think is deadly. So it’s about adding value to the environment that people are living in. So there’s examples like that. To me, one that really sticks out is Boort, so that’s Yung Balug country, there’s a documentary done about it, The Lake of Scars, so it’s probably got the most scar trees in the world, have exciting news. In November at our last AGM members moved the motion to go for World Heritage Listing for that space. So we’ve seen the good that that’s done at Budj Bim because people used to go down the Ocean Road and they’d turn around and head back to Melbourne, but now they keep cruising back-

Charles:

They go to Budj Bim.

Djaran:

… down to Budj Bim. Yeah. So I’m hoping that we can probably replicate something similar at Boort. So that’s some exciting news that we could probably do. And I’m sure treaty could probably assist in that process.

Charles:

You’ve got a lot of work to do, as we mentioned, you said that you’ve got to bring the families together and start to prepare for treaty itself. What are some of the other things that you expect to hear from community when it comes to treaty? And importantly, Djaran, how do you establish the priorities? Because mob’s going to want a heck of a lot and their expectations have to be, well, somewhat minimized in order to make this first round of negotiations realistic from the state government’s perspective as well because it’s a negotiation, it’s not just listing demands, isn’t it?

Djaran:

Yeah, spot on. We do have a mountain of work ahead of us. My plans are, moving forward, to establish a working group within DJAARA that will have representations from all the working group and they’ll hopefully lead the body of work that we need need to do before we get to the table.

In my mind, it’ll be similar to what we’ve done for the Statewide Treaty. So we made a negotiation brief, we established our negotiation protocols. So it’s about what is DJAARA’s negotiation brief going to look like? What are the subject headings we want to discuss? We’ve already spoken about caring for a country, so you’d think Djandak would be a whole subsection in our negotiation.

Charles:

Absolutely.

Djaran:

You would think Dja Dja Wurrung People would be a whole subsection in our negotiation brief. And it’s about making sure that we are engaging with the mob from the family group level to the clan group level, to a whole group level and making sure that all aspirations are heard. And it’s my view that every single family group aspiration will feed into the main overarching treaty that’ll go to the state at some point.

Charles:

How many family groups are there just as an offside?

Djaran:

I think there’s roughly about 16 or 18, but I don’t think all of them are represented on the board, even if some have descendants as well.

Charles:

You need to set up a negotiating party, your key negotiators. Finding those sorts of people isn’t always the easiest. Have you been identifying anyone yet? And if you have, are you prepared to name names at this point?

Djaran:

I won’t name anyone, but I will say that we are a deadly bunch of people, as you know. We do have myself, my sister, who’s the co-chair of the Assembly who might want to take part of that, and I’m happy to help out the whole process throughout the whole way and just guide it. There’s been some people who are interested in helping out, but I don’t really want to name them too much. But if you look at some of our past agreements and what we’ve managed to achieve, especially more recently with our agreement with Agnico Eagle, I think we have a fairly good stock of negotiators that will help us get over the line.

Charles:

And for our audience, if you’d like to know more about that negotiation that Djaran just mentioned, there is a podcast episode on our website with Uncle Rodney, which really marks the first time, at least in Victoria, of traditional owners sharing in the wealth of the resources of this state. Do you see also that that resource sharing or sharing of some of the profits at least of those resources drawn from Djandak country? And given that, we’re talking about the gold fields of Victoria pretty well, aren’t we, brother?

Djaran:

Yeah.

Charles:

It’s huge. Do you think that this is an important part of local treaties right across the state, indeed, eventually the entire country going forward?

Djaran:

Yeah. Well, I think firstly, we’ll be dealing with the state. As part of the framework though, you can add additional parties, so the door’s open to, I guess, any type of mind. If they want to have the conversation, we can probably do that.

Charles:

We’ve skirted around the topic of the additional negotiating parties because in the treaty itself, the primary negotiating parties under the Treaty Negotiation Framework are traditional owner groups and the state government. But there is this wonderful little section within the framework that says, “By agreement,” and I’m paraphrasing here, “both parties can,” and I love this term, “invite other organizations and individuals to be additional negotiating parties.” Without naming names, have you started to identify internally some of those additional negotiating parties?

Djaran:

Yeah, well, I think local councils is probably a key one.

Charles:

That’s a no-brainer.

Djaran:

Yeah. I guess any other type of organization that might want to take part. Maybe we want to some health outcomes and we can bring in BDAC, for example, as an ally and someone to help us because they’re the experts in their field. We don’t deal with service delivery and delivering health outcomes in their type of way, so it’d be good to bring them into the conversation.

Charles:

And BDAC is a Bendigo district Aboriginal corporation, which has just been undertaking some amazing expansion work. We covered that last year, which is brilliant stuff.

Djaran:

Probably talk about the gold mines and stuff as well that are on country. For those of you who don’t know, we often call Djandak upside-down country because a lot of gold was taken from our country as well. And it came out strongly in the Yoorrook hearings as well, roughly $200 billion worth of gold has been taken out of Victoria.

Charles:

And DJAARA has received how much?

Djaran:

Yeah, I’m not too sure. Not much.

Charles:

Not much, if it at all.

Djaran:

Not much in the grand scheme of things.

Charles:

I want to bring it to you personally now. You’ve really been traveling the treaty process since 2018, 2017, and obviously, with your family well before that, but at a formal level, really since 2018, advancing the Treaty Act, you’ve been involved with this all the way through. As the DJAARA Representative Reserve Seat Holder on the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria, what are the personal challenges that you’re facing when it comes to, well, you’ve got to commit to Statewide Treaty as a representative there, but then you’ve also really got to lead the way, at least within the Assembly, on the local treaties. How do you divide that and how do you manage it, for goodness’ sake?

Djaran:

Look, I say this all the time, I actually got the best role in the world. I wouldn’t even really call it a job, if I’m being honest with you, but I was elected just to do Statewide Treaty and focus on that, but I took it on myself that I’m not just going to focus on that and that we have to actually get some things done in DJAARA to make sure that they’re engaged and they’re ready to negotiate their own treaty as well, which I think it all aligns quite well because I am engaging with them and making sure that they’re updated on Statewide Treaty as well. And that’s part of the Assembly’s collective support as well, making sure that traditional owner groups are all happy with the way things are going with Statewide. So yeah, I think it aligns too well not to do something, and I’m not someone who just wants to sit back and not do anything. I always have to be-

Charles:

Never imagine that.

Djaran:

… on top of everything and make sure I get things done. I think I get that half from my father and maybe half from my mother. I’m not too sure, but yeah.

Charles:

You’ve got some good bloodlines there, brother. You really do. The mob, without a doubt, or elements of the mob, are going to be saying to you and to also the others within DJAARA, “Well, when are we going to get treaty done?” Because they are going to be all looking down the barrel of this November 2026 election. How do you respond to that? You notice, I’m not asking you, when will you be able to do it, but how do you respond to mob when they ask, “When are we actually going to get the signed documents?”

Djaran:

I like to say we want to get this done fast, but we want to do it right. So we want to make sure we don’t leave no stone unturned and that we’re not leaving anything at the table. And to me, we need to make sure we align this to the mob’s actual aspirations and ensure that everyone feels something out of this process. If every single member of the DJAARA Cooperation doesn’t feel something out of these treaty negotiations, then we’ve done something wrong in my eyes. For me, the really important part is making sure we’re engaging with them, bringing them along on the journey, and that they’re actually taking part in the process.

Charles:

The influence on the work towards the local treaty from your experience with the Statewide Treaty, what impact does that have? What learnings have you been able to take across and give to the community?

Djaran:

Yeah, I think just like the actual pre-work that went into Statewide Treaty negotiations in terms of forming our brief, our negotiation protocols as well. I’ve got some invaluable lessons from that in the work that we did in chamber and treaty committee at the Assembly, and I’ll definitely be able to transfer some of that across to our pre-work for our local DJAARA treaty.

Charles:

Djaran Murray-Jackson, we’ll be catching up again, I’m sure, as the negotiations start happening between the DJAARA and the statewide government. Respect, and thanks so much indeed for your time.

Djaran:

No worries. Thanks for having me.