Charles Pakana (Victorian Aboriginal News):

With the Victorian Statewide Treaty negotiations all but completed and in preparation for the passage through Parliament later on this year, we’re taking time to sit with the chair of the Treaty Authority, that organization, that overlooks the entire Treaty process, Djab Wurrung man Jidah Clark to talk about challenges that have been existing so far in the process and also looking forward to its involvement in the local Treaty processes.

Jidah, thanks for joining us, brother.

Jidah Clark (Treaty Authority):

Thank you for having me, Uncle Charles.

Charles:

Jidah, the Treaty Authority, now we’ve spoken to a number of members about a number of different aspects of the Authority, but as Treaty negotiations are continuing, now that we’re getting to that point with the Statewide Treaty, we’ve now got DJAARA that’s registered. It’s prepared us to enter into Treaty processes. How do you see the Authority’s role evolving, particularly as more of the local Treaties start to be negotiated?

Jidah:

We’ve been heavily engaged on the ground, speaking with traditional owner groups over the last 18 months to support their journey. We have spent a lot of time establishing the Treaty Authority’s functions and the body itself, and now we’ve had experience with one Treaty negotiation. That’s the statewide negotiations that have been operating, underway now for about eight, nine months.

We really want to encourage traditional owner groups to be speaking with us to support them along that journey. The way we see our role evolving is moving beyond just information sharing and information educating and spreading the word about the Treaty process and how traditional owners commence Treaty negotiations to actually working with traditional owner groups to help them flag their interests for Treaty, which is not an over-burdensome task to meet minimum standards and get registered with our Register. Some of the big work that we’ll be undertaking is in the delegation forming space where traditional owner groups from around the state must come together to form collective agreement on progressing Treaty.

Charles:

Now that’s outlined in the Treaty Negotiation Framework, of course, but what are some of the key challenges you find apart from helping them form the delegations? What are some of the key challenges that you believe that traditional owners will find in the Treaty process that the Treaty Authority can come in and assist?

Jidah:

We’re available to support at every step of the journey. I think one of the key factors for TO groups is to form the right aspirations and visions for what is sought from a Treaty and how might a Treaty support community strengthening and thriving communities to improve the situation of our communities to properly thrive, to properly get a foothold, to run their own affairs. It comes back to this idea of right self-determination and that’s a key principle for the process moving forward. When it comes to another key step in the process, that’s delegation forming. One of the challenges there is there must be only one delegation formed over a particular territory, and that will mean traditional owner groups with different interests over the same part of the country must be in the room together to have a conversation of how to form this delegation and come to some level of agreement on how its governance structures work, how it makes decisions, who represents the delegation, how information is shared, and how all of those groups with interest are considered in the process and have that right to inclusivity.

Charles:

Are we looking at any particular groups right now facing that particular challenge that you could at least talk about?

Jidah:

We don’t yet have a group that is in the delegation forming process, but we now have one group that’s registered and completed a minimum standards notification. That’s DJAARA, as you mentioned. That’s a significant step to the progress for their group along this journey. We’re in conversations now around the next step in the process. So it is a bit of a journey. We will work closely with traditional owner groups to ensure they’re supported in the right ways, that we can have a bit of an understanding of their level of readiness in the process. One of our key pieces of work over the next 12 months is establishing a project that starts to understand and seek input from traditional owners of where they are on that readiness journey and are there any support mechanisms, whether that’s treaty education, whether that’s support to train up negotiators or facilitators to understand what nation building might mean for a group.

Charles:

So the Authority, you expect to be in a position where it can provide that support to the traditional owner groups for those particular aspirations. It does bring up one more thing, Jidah, and that is that when you’re talking about delegations, when it comes to local treaties, and we’ll stick with local treaties right now, a lot of traditional owner groups have local governments in their area, which are actually spanning multiple traditional owner groups. Now, if we look at Bendigo, for example, now that’s on Taungurung Country and it’s on DJAARA country, and that’s just one of many. There are some that have got more than two traditional owner groups. Is the Treaty Authority also there to assist with the local governments? Because the Treaty Authority is not just there to help traditional owners, is it? It’s there to provide support across the board.

Jidah:

Our main function is to oversee and facilitate treaty negotiations and we play the independent facilitator role that is impartial to provide a level of accountability and transparency to build the trust and confidence of the wider public, not here only to serve Aboriginal communities, but the public as a whole to ensure there is integrity to the process.

Charles:

So do you believe the Treaty Authority has a role in helping local governments as well deal with that challenge? Because we’re hearing that a fair bit across Victoria. We’ve got multiple traditional owner groups within our local government authority boundaries. What the hell do we do? Is the Treaty Authority able, or at least planning, to be able to provide some assistance there?

Jidah:

Yeah, definitely. We are engaging with all sorts of stakeholders and one of those key stakeholders are the local government groups that will be sitting in the boundaries of a delegation once a delegation is formed. Now there’s no right for a local government to be in attendance at a negotiation, but they can be invited by a traditional owner group and the state to be a part of treaty negotiations. It’s a bit hard in the abstract to know what part of treaty negotiations will affect local governments, but one could imagine that a traditional owner group may want to negotiate with the local government to seek some outcomes.

Charles:

You’re being a little bit cagey there, John. A little bit cagey. I mean, let’s be realistic. It seems that when it comes to local treaties, especially when it comes to local land, local waters, which fall within the roles of responsibility of local government, that that little part in the treaty negotiation framework where both primary negotiating parties can invite additional negotiating parties, that seems really custom-made for local governments to be brought in. Do you see that this will be a major part of local Treaties?

Jidah:

It’s a bit difficult for me to make the call as it is something that’s decided by traditional owner groups, but I can say we’re planning and working with local governments to help them understand how this process works. There’s an education project that’s underway. We’re going to be releasing a public guide for local government groups to understand a bit of the background to the treaty process and that ability to be involved. I think what’s critically important is the relationships that may already exist between traditional owner groups and local governments to build upon and forge those partnerships, build rapport, have a sense of common goals. Because when Aboriginal communities are thriving in the regions, so do local governments and local business.

Charles:

Of course, yeah.

Jidah:

There can be better management of waterways and lands. There’s plenty of opportunity to use treaty as a mechanism to create better management, better prosperity in those areas.

Charles:

Didn’t really answer the question, but I think the answer you gave is obviously going to be the one that we’re going to stick with. Definitely those are the sorts of messages we’re hearing out there in community, where local treaties does support the broader community. And that does bring up something really important. I remember, must have been, jeepers, well over 12 months ago that I sat down with two of your members, Thelma Austin and Andrew Jackomos, and asked them, quite pointedly, “How can you expect the broader community to trust this organization with the management and the oversight of the treaty process when the five members are all Aboriginal?” And Uncle Andrew was very, very pointed and stern on this one when he said, “We are proud Victorians as well as being proud Aboriginal people.” Is that a bit of an ethos within the organization?

Jidah:

Definitely. We are here to represent broader Victoria and all of us have diverse experiences and skills and have worked in different industries. While we are Aboriginal people, we bring a set of skills and experience that are here to serve the Treaty Authority’s functions and we take that point of independence very seriously. We take the point of being impartial very seriously.

Charles:

It must be difficult at times, though, when it’s mob.

Jidah:

I think there is definitely perhaps some challenges in the sense of familiarity that mob may have with members. But in taking upon this role, I think there is a level of understanding and respect that goes both ways.

Charles:

Sure.

Jidah:

We haven’t run into any challenges that’s put at risk, that level of independence and impartiality, that we’re here to have difficult conversations. We’re going to be managing many difficult conversations and it’s key that we can have that sense of respect and confidence that one of the beauties is there’s five members here that work on a consensus-based model. So we don’t have one member out on a limb that’s inconsistent, that’s informing and advising in different ways, but there is a strong sense of commonality and with that brings a certain level of robustness that it’s not just one person’s view. There are five people’s views and inputs that go to this. We’ve got some pretty stern or robust standards of conduct that we align with and we take the time to digest and reflect on those standards to ensure we’re doing everything we can to build trust. And that takes time.

Charles:

Let’s bring it back to the Statewide Treaty and the recent negotiations. So since I think November last year, negotiations between the state government of the First People’s Assembly commenced, I believe around about 40 negotiating sessions all told, or at least 40 over that period of time, leading up to the current preparation of the bill. What was your involvement during those 40 sessions? Was a member of the Authority always there to oversee? If so, what were some of the challenges?

Jidah:

So in our role playing sort of a facilitative function and oversight function, we have regular meetings with the parties to get a good understanding of where things are at, what the progress of negotiations is, what is the schedule of negotiations, when are they happening? We have joint sessions with the parties. We have individual sessions with negotiators in either side to get a good understanding of the progress and some of the highs and lows, some of the challenges, and there are always going to be tensions and challenges in any negotiation.

Charles:

Can we mention any of the challenges without breaking confidences?

Jidah:

I think at a high level there’s got to be positions put forward and positions that are negotiated. That’s always going to bring robust conversation.

Charles:

So this is aspirations versus reality?

Jidah:

I think there’s been a high aspiration from the First People’s Assembly on what’s achievable. That’s always going to be met with the realities of a state government and how far they’re willing to push the envelope and sign up to a treaty that is meaningful and transformative and brings value to Victoria that resolves the historic injustices to a degree. I think it’s important to note there is a real desire from the Assembly to push through and achieve a Statewide Treaty. That support and commitment is met by the state and particularly the minister, the premier that are on board, with getting a treaty over the line. That does breed a lot of collaboration and I think cohesiveness.

Charles:

So, once again, are there any challenges that we can talk about apart from what you’ve said? No?

Jidah:

Well, I can’t go into the specifics.

Charles:

I had to give it a try. Had to give it a Try.

Jidah:

But, look, what I can say is that there’s a lot of negotiations. They’re in there, late nights, there’s constant communication back and forth. It’s not always easy, but there is, I think, a high degree of respect between the parties. There is a strong level of collaboration, and us at the Treaty Authority have been in to facilitate some conversations and they’ve always been fruitful.

Charles:

Let’s look to the future once we get a Statewide Treaty over the line and passed through Parliament, and even to the point where we have local treaties enacted. So a couple of years, a year or two into the future, once treaties are signed, how does the Treaty Authority actually get in there and make sure that both parties are sticking to the rules? So what’s your power? What are your limitations? What’s the reality of it?

Jidah:

Yeah, one thing with the way the framework is set up is that it wasn’t established what the role of the Treaty Authority would be post treaties being signed. That’s ultimately up to the parties to be deciding what the level of implementation and accountability to that implementation might be. So we know that there’s going to be legislation put in place.

Charles:

Sure.

Jidah:

That creates legal requirements and obligations on the parties that could be tested and enforced if need be.

Charles:

Is this something that you as the Chair of the Treaty Authority, would welcome that opportunity to expand those roles? Because, let’s be really frank, history has shown us, regardless of geographically where you are, no treaties are adhered to 100%.

Jidah:

We’re very mindful of that, very mindful of the way I think the concern of traditional owners across the state and the country to feel convinced or to feel like the government, the state government, will commit to and oblige by a treaty. I think it’s important to remember the political relationship that’s established by a treaty, and this is something that hasn’t been done in Australia before. There is an imperative, I think, on the community and the support from not only Aboriginal people and mob across the state and the country, but also non-Aboriginal people that support the process to stand up and get behind the treaty to ensure that it maintains a level of relevance and that it continues to be something we all believe in. That may require standing up and making your case be known if things go awry.

Charles:

We’ll finish off with just this last question. I’ll make it a nice and easy one for you, Jidah, and that is that now that we’ve finished negotiations for this first iteration of the Statewide Treaty, I think it’s important for the listeners to understand this is the first iteration of a statewide treaty.

Jidah:

I’ll just jump in and say negotiations aren’t completely finalized as far as I know.

Charles:

Okay. That’s all you’re going to say? Come on.

Charles:

At what point then in the negotiations between the finalization of negotiations and the submission of it to Houses of Parliament, at what stage does the Treaty Authority step away from its involvement in this?

Jidah:

I think we’ll be in close contact with the parties ongoingly.

Charles:

Well, the Treaty Authority’s role is not due to end any time soon.

Jidah:

And we expect to maintain conversations with the parties because the intention is that there will be ongoing conversations to address the matters that perhaps aren’t addressed in this Statewide Treaty.

Charles:

Because this is a very foundational treaty. We’re not going to get into the depths of it. We’ve already covered that in a previous interview with Reuben from the Assembly, and we’ll obviously be chatting up with Reuben a lot more in the future and Nagara, but that first iteration of the Treaty, which does not look at a lot of the social things, it looks more at the infrastructure, Assembly 3.0 and a lot of those other things. So the work is going to be continuing, the Treaty Authority is around for a long time, and you and I will be catching up many times over the next several years, at least. Jidah Clark, I want to thank you so much indeed for your time, brother.

Jidah:

Thank you.