Charles Pakana (VAN):

Since early 2024 Kupa Teao, a Cook Island Māori, has served as the Chief Executive Officer of Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Cultural Heritage Aboriginal Corporation, arguably one of the toughest gigs in Victoria’s First Nations landscape. He joins me today on VAN Talks to discuss a range of topics, from community engagement to treaty preparation.

Kupa, thanks for sparing the time today.

Kupa Teao (CEO, Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung Cultural Heritage Aboriginal Corporation):

Thank you for having me here.

Charles:

Kupa, let’s start off with gaining a bit of an understanding of the operational scope and complexities of the corporation, because they typically apply to most traditional owner groups across Victoria.

Kupa:

Yeah, I guess looking from the outside in the general public would look at the corporation and immediately assume that the bulk, if not a hundred percent of the work we do is in the area of cultural heritage matters. But that’s not entirely correct. We do deal with other matters other than cultural heritage, and we are a registered Aboriginal party with the Victorian State Government. As such, we do manage all things cultural heritage, particularly artifacts on Country and so forth, and we’re part of their process.

But we do a lot more than managing cultural heritage matters, we’ve got a number of dedicated teams within the organization such as our events team, our research team, education. We also have a very successful Narrap Ranger Unit that does some wonderful work around land management and sea country, or water management matters.

Charles:

Let’s just go back to the research team. Give us a bit of an understanding of what the research team does.

Kupa:

The research does a lot of work around anthropological matters, particularly around the family and genealogy, and with specifically members of the Wurundjeri community. I mean, they do a lot of work around all the ancestral dissents with the family and they record all that information. And a lot of the work they do prepares the corporation to help us on our journey towards Native title. And the research team also looks at this year of Country, Wurundjeri’s connection to Country. And another piece of work that they do is around membership applications. Ascertain people who complete our membership application and put that forward.

Charles:

So these are people who are coming forward and saying, “We are of Wurundjeri descent. We belong within the group.”

Kupa:

Correct. And the research undertakes work aligning all the information on the completed forms and to ascertain that they are connected to the Wurundjeri community.

Charles:

And what about education? Education is a huge area and you’ve got a number of great educators out there. Uncle Bill Nicholson, Uncle Dave Wandin, and quite a few others. What’s the key role in the education? Because it seems to be outward-facing rather than the inward-facing.

Kupa:

That’s a good question because education, as we speak, is going through significant transformation. Specifically when the education team were up and running, they were specifically doing work around cultural awareness training, cultural safety training in the workplace, with customers such as government and non-government organizations and community organizations within the community. But now they’ve expanded on that, they do a lot more work in the classroom around cultural awareness matters.

Charles:

How much demand is there for that? I’d imagine quite a bit.

Kupa:

They have got a full team that are very busy in that space, and then they also do other projects like events. We recently had the Wurundjeri Week event and we had a number of activities throughout that day. I have to say the finale for me was the trip up to Hanging Rock.

Charles:

I’ve heard all about this from so many people. It was a great day, I believe.

Kupa:

It was a lovely day, but more important, it was wonderful to go on Country with the Wurundjeri community, allow them to share their Country with us non-indigenous staff, and go up their on Country. And they shared with us song lines and connection to Country. And once you got to the summit, you can see the alignment with Mount William and the Camel’s Hump on Mount Macedon. It’s just incredible to be on Country. And that’s one of many areas of work that the education work in.

Charles:

Now let’s just keep on the theme of actually education but expand a little bit. Right across your Country or the Country of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung there 29 local government authorities, which is the highest number of any traditional owner group right across the state. How do you deal with that number of relationships? Because I know you’ve got one-to-one relationships with a great number of them, but how do you manage that?

Kupa:

Look, that’s a good question. This is my fourth Aboriginal corporation as a CEO. This is my fourth state I’ve worked in, and previous corporations prior, to coming on board as a CEO for Wurundjeri Corporation. My last corporation, we had one local government on Country, and the corporation prior to that, up in far north Queensland, we had three local governments on country.

Charles:

So you go from 3 to 29?

Kupa:

Yeah, to 29.

Charles:

You’re a glutton for punishment.

Kupa:

Yeah, well. And so we do have a dedicated local government liaison officer. His name is Anthony.

Charles:

Yeah, Anthony Huber?

Kupa:

He’s the go-between between, between us and the local government. Look, that’s a good question and that’s something I want to try and build … to make sure that we have a fit purpose process in place so that we can engage effectively with them. I’ve met with groups such as the M9, which is nine councils in a particular area, and had discussions with them about my role and the role of the corporation. I also had a brief conversation with them about treaty.

Charles:

But how important is the relationship with local governments?

Kupa:

Look, to me, local government is an important… Well, all our stakeholders who we work with are important, but local government is vitally important because they’re probably the closest government organization to community. And I’m talking about the wider community in addition to the Wurundjeri community. So having that connection with local government is vitally important. That connection, I think it strengthens that reconciliation between the two organizations. I think that’s important. It should be a connection of open and honest and frank conversations with local governments, and I think that’s important.

But going back to your point, I have to say that working effectively and efficiently with 29 local government, at this point in time it’s a work in progress.

Charles:

So currently statewide and local treaties are high on the public agenda in Victoria. How is Wurundjeri as an organization working in that space and how much pressure is it applied to the organization?

Kupa:

First of all, I give credit to the state government for really putting their best foot forward to go down this track of treaty for the states.

As you’re aware, the treaty comes in two key parts. The first part being the Statewide Treaty and then the traditional owner groups, which the Wurundjeri Corporation sits under. I’ve been engaged in a number of projects throughout my career in government and non-government, I have to say this is up the top because you have to pull on your resources.

I think the secret to our success with this matter moving forward is comms or communication. Communicating not only with the Wurundjeri community, the wider community, and as we talked about previously, our relationship with local governments. That’s vitally important. Treaty benefits everyone, not just the Wurundjeri community.

And you’re right, it is a huge undertaking. We have a dedicated treaty committee, and at the helm of that committee is Uncle Andrew Gardiner, a Wurundjeri elder, and he’s been at the forefront going out to different groups and organizations, and presenting on the matter around treaty. Now we have a dedicated committee which consists of two other Wurundjeri community representatives, and then I have my in-house counsel lawyer, and my admin staff help from time to time. So we’ve got a great team, but I guess key to our success with all things treaty is community consultation.

Charles:

There’s an expectation out there in the broader community of the non-aboriginal community that traditional owners are going to just jump on the bandwagon very quickly and start registering their intent with the Treaty Authority to start negotiation of local treaties. How realistic is that and what are some of the key challenges that Wurundjeri, and I’m sure other traditional owner organizations, might be facing in preparing even these early stages for local treaty?

Kupa:

Look, that’s a good question. I don’t speak for the other traditional owner groups-

Charles:

Of course.

Kupa:

… but when you think about what First Nations people have gone through since colonization, and the impact of colonization and all the other mishaps around displacement and so forth leading up to this point in time. So one can imagine that there’s an element of mistrust. So the process is both sensitive and at the same time it’s overwhelming for First Nations group.

For Wurundjeri Corporation, look, to be quite honest, I haven’t had my first community consultation as yet, and that’s been planned in the not too distant future. But what I’ve heard from a large number of Wurundjeri communities is they’re very, very determined to go down the track to get treaty. But as I mentioned earlier, it’s making sure you’ve got a good operational process to get into that community consultation, meeting with all our key stakeholders, engaging with them in discussion around all these matters moving forward. I guess the other key thing, and I think I touched on it previously, treaty is for everyone. It’s not necessarily just for First Nations people, but it’s for everyone.

Charles:

We are here this time and time again. Of course.

Kupa:

Correct. And I think that it’s an important messaging to get out there, but the First Nations people, organizations such as ours, really need to take a bull by the horn and drive things forward. That as I mentioned earlier, the community consultation is important. There needs to be some capacity and capability building within the organization and the community, because there’s going to be some changes once that comes into fruition.

Charles:

So it sounds like there’s no immediate rush to start the treaty process on the broader scale.

Kupa:

Well, there is no immediate rush, but there is some time constraints.

Charles:

Are we talking about the next state elections?

Kupa:

Correct, correct. And that may have an impact on if there’s a change of government. So rather than wait for that to happen, then we need to consider, “Okay, how important is it for us to get treaty at this point in time leading up to the elections?” But you’re right, that’s correct.

Charles:

Going from treaty to self-determination, that multifaceted… A simple statement. Self-determination. What does that look like for Wurundjeri and how is the corporation working to achieve it at any or all levels?

Kupa:

Self-determination comes in different shapes and forms. And fortunate for Wurundjeri, because we’re in a high density area, a large population, you got most, if not all government departments. Their main offices are in Wurundjeri Country, which puts the Wurundjeri community in a unique position.

Having said that, we’re in high level discussions with government and non-government organizations who wish to pursue events around partnerships. So partnerships is form of self-determination for Wurundjeri people. When you have other people’s footprint on your Country, the best way to engage with them and to have a lasting relationship with them is to have those partnerships. So we’re having partnerships. And I can’t give you the detail of who they are because we’re still in the discussions with them, but that’s a form of self-determination.

Having said that, I think the state governments do their best to engage Wurundjeri to talk about economic aspirations, whether it be a business or employment opportunity in Wurundjeri. That’s another form of aspiration, especially for Wurundjeri people and so forth. And let’s not forget the number of funding streams we get from government to help us engage in numerous projects with government.

Charles:

I recognize that you can’t talk about specifics of the partnerships, the players, and also the details, but when it comes to a partnership with an organization or a government, and we’re bringing it still under that umbrella of self-determination, what are some of the key things you’re looking at? Because I would assume it would be shared decision-making. That’s got to be key to that. Can you expand a bit on that or dive a bit deeper? And you’re giving me a bit of a smile there, so I’m not sure.

Kupa:

No, look, that’s a good question. And this is my opinion, when organizations, businesses want to engage with First Nations people, they bring up their word partnerships. Like I said, partnership comes in different shapes and forms, and I advocate for Wurundjeri at the highest level and I want nothing but the best for them. I don’t want anything substandard. I don’t want anything tokenistic. And like I said, I’m saying this in my opinion, I just want nothing but the best deal for Wurundjeri. And I want to make sure that it helps Wurundjeri to build on the aspirations and go back to my point that I mentioned earlier, that they have a footprint on their own Country around all things economic developments. I think that’s really important.

But going back to your point, yeah, if we’re going to go into discussions around partnerships, it has to be fit for purpose and I won’t accept anything less than, substandard, it has to ensure that Wurundjeri have ideally the best deal moving forward.

Charles:

So it sounds like it’d be somewhat intolerant of tokenism.

Kupa:

Correct.

Charles:

Let’s keep on then with relationships, because more and more organizations are recognizing the importance, socially, politically, culturally, of partnering with traditional owners. Now, this is a relatively small organization. You don’t have a huge number of resources devoted to partnership management and development. For those organizations, and even individuals, who are seeking a relationship with Wurundjeri, what’s your advice?

Kupa:

Relationship and stakeholder engagement is really important to the corporation, especially to the success of the corporation. Their relationship is really important. And I want to take it on your point, we don’t have the resources. We also don’t have an army of elders. This corporation is very elders orientated. We have up to 10 committees that are currently in place. All the committees have a strong representation of elders from each of the three families that make up the Wurundjeri community. The elders who go into these high-level meetings with governments and non-governments to talk about all things Country.

So that stakeholder engagement is important. The communication thing is important. I also want to go back to my point I mentioned previously about partnership. Another key form of partnership is, put us at the head of the table. Make sure if you’ve got representation from the corporation, specifically elders, make sure the elders have a seat at the table.

Charles:

Nothing about us without us.

Kupa:

Yeah, exactly. Not a back seat.

Charles:

Yeah.

Kupa:

They need to be inclusive of all, if not most of the decision making. I understand there are processes in place and sometimes certain decisions are the responsibility of the minister, the relevant ministers, but it’s important with this relationship that we have a Wurundjeri person, or persons, at the seat of the table, that they have the right to speak for Country. They are in a better position to represent their people moving forward. My role as a administrator is to make sure of that, to provide them the necessary platform. I brief them, bring them up to speed. If there’s any training or technical training they need, then I can provide that support for them as well.

Charles:

Do you have much pushback from these organizations, whether they’re corporate or government, when you do say to them, “Okay, look, we want a seat at the table and our voice counts”? Is there much pushback?

Kupa:

Surprisingly, no. They’re very supportive of it. I guess the key thing is, it’s all fine and dandy having ours as a seat of the table, or being in various committees to represent the community at these meetings, but it needs to be resourced. Resource is another key factor in all this.

Charles:

With regard to non-government organizations that want to establish a partnership with Wurundjeri, whether it’s for the development of a reconciliation action plan, a self-determination plan, or just to gain advice about where they operate, what are some of the key things they need to consider before they come to you and say, “Hey, we want start talking about a partnership or relationship”?

Kupa:

Can I just add to the list?

Charles:

Mm.

Kupa:

Some of the conversations we’re having with non-government is the transfer of assets.

Charles:

You can’t just leave it at that, Kupa?

Kupa:

Yeah.

Charles:

Okay.

Kupa:

The transfer of assets. I’m talking about facilities, buildings, properties, they want to hand back to Wurundjeri.

I’m just going on to your point, and part of that process, you’re right, we make sure we have the right committee to meet with them. We have to ensure we have good, I guess, terms of reference or documentation in place to ensure that we have good protocols. So when we’re communicating, in fact with each other that communication is obviously at the highest level, but there’s a communication of respect. The relevant information is recorded and protected at the same time. And then when the deal’s made, everyone comes away smiling. And I think that’s really important.

But that’s a good question. Wurundjeri have numerous opportunities in front of us with non-government organization. And my role is just to make sure we have a strategic approach, especially when we engage in these discussion. Make sure we don’t bite off more than we can eat, and make sure we have the capability and the capacity. I don’t mind crudeness in my discussion. Sometimes when an asset gets transferred over the corporation, it automatically becomes a liability. So we need to make sure that we understand the processes, understand what decisions to make, managing risk associated with any of those decisions, and just allowing those processes to move forward, particularly in the right direction.

Charles:

How do you manage then this growing demand on Wurundjeri resources? Time? People?

Kupa:

I’ll answer that question soon, but I want to say the demand on Wurundjeri at this point in time, since I’ve been on board, one word sums it up. Overwhelming.

Charles:

So how do you manage that?

Kupa:

It’s absolutely over… How do I manage it? Well, I can only deal with one at a time. Unfortunately, I’ve had to park a few up because it’s just so big for me and for my team and for the corporation. And unfortunately we’ve had to let some go. I mean that’s just the nature of the beast and the type of work that we work in.

I guess the main thing is, going back to my point around overwhelming, Wurundjeri Corporation is in such a unique position. Just given the location of Country, being in a highly dense population and businesses and growth, and then so forth, it puts Wurundjeri, the community, in a unique position to, I guess, put a lot of thought, particularly around the decision-making process.

Charles:

So it seems to me that a bit of advice that one could draw from what you’ve been talking about is that before an organization, whether it’s a corporation or a government, comes to Wurundjeri with an idea, at least to have done their homework first. Because the amount of time that’s required to sit down and brainstorm the whole thing is simply, in many cases, beyond the resource ability of Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung. So that planning is critical?

Kupa:

It is. The planning is critical. And you’re right, I’ve had to park a lot of these real key projects just to make sure we’re on the front foot.

Charles:

You know I want to ask what sort of projects.

Kupa:

Yeah. Asset transfers. There’s discussions around benefit sharing. Once again, partnerships and so forth. And then let’s not forget, one of the things I think it’s important for a CEO in a Aboriginal Corporation is to champion legislation. You need to know legislation, policies, procedures as well. And where I’m going to with this is staying connected with the legislators. So having said that, Wurundjeri have also been invited and part of numerous, not just one, not just two, but numerous legislative reforms, even policy developments, Wurundjeri have been invited to be part of these processes.

Charles:

So hence your legal team as well, I would assume?

Kupa:

Yeah, correct. In fact, recently, I can’t name the name of the department, we engaged with this particular department around pricing submissions. Never done before.

Charles:

Kupa, what about individuals? There are so many individuals out there that belong to local reconciliation groups and various other organizations. They want to do their bit to support what Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung. What advice do you have for them?

Kupa:

Look, that’s a really good question, and I’m glad you brought it up. When you say individuals, one of my secrets to my success are the individuals you’re referring to. And I’m going to get into the philanthropic space. I think it’s important that… I was supposed to meet with a philanthropic group last week. I don’t know if you’re aware, but I’ve got to raise some funds to look for a permanent home for Wurundjeri. And that’s an area that I specialize in, raising funds.

Charles:

Yeah.

Kupa:

So going back to the small groups or the individual groups, the philanthropic groups or persons out there, I want to connect with them. I do enjoy giving back to community. And when I say that I’m trying to set up, I call it, the concept, Men’s Shed.

Charles:

Yeah, okay.

Kupa:

So Wurundjeri community, or even the wider community, would come in, and I’m not saying that I specialize, but I share my life experience. I share decisions I made, when I turn back in time I wouldn’t make that decision again. And decisions I’ve made, and I know that’s a great decision, that’s a great choice I’ve made. And I want to share that with the community and so forth. But I also give back in the tertiary environment. I’m a fellow of Ormond College, and I do a lot of work with First Nations students at Ormond College. And I enjoy doing that.

So going back to the individuals, I think that relationship with individuals is important. I guess going back to your point about how can they reach out to us, and as I mentioned earlier when we first started this conversation, it’s a work in progress, so that we can make sure that our doors are open, so that people who want to share or connect with us, we want to ensure that we stay connected with them.

Charles:

Kupa Teao, thanks so much indeed for your time.

Kupa:

Thanks for having me.