Charles Pakana (Victorian Aboriginal News):

As of recording this interview, it’s now less than two hours since landmark treaty legislation was tabled with the Victorian Legislative Assembly, the first stage in what could well be a protracted passage through the parliamentary process for Victorian Treaty. Joining me now is Gunditjmara Man and co-chair of the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria, and reserved seat holder, I might add, for the Eastern Maar traditional owner group, Rueben Berg. Rueben, first up, congratulations to you and all the team for a landmark point in time, which has been the focus of so many years of work.

Rueben Berg (First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria):

Yeah, thank you. As you said, it’s the culmination of many, many years of work now by many, many people over quite a significant period of time, so amazing to see it come to this next stage.

Charles:

One of the things that really comes to mind right now, and this is more just a conversational piece than a question, is I do remember in the early days of covering treaty when it was the Victorian Treaty Advancement Commissioner, Aunty Jill Gallagher, of course, traipsing all over Victoria, including I might add of course to prisons and very out of reach places that she’s often stated that she didn’t really expect treaty to happen in her lifetime. So what do you say to all those people who were expecting such a long haul on this and how do you reflect back on achieving so much in such a relatively short period of time?

Rueben:

Yeah, I was actually sitting next to Aunty Jill in parliament when the bill was tabled, so very mindful of that journey today. I think a key thing has always been in this process that we haven’t tried to bite off more than we can chew at this first stage, and that’s enabled us to achieve what we have achieved in this relatively short period of time, some might say, but still significant amount of time. It’s been that idea that we broke this up into the different elements, the statewide treaty, the traditional owner treaties, those true separate components, and that we see this as just the first statewide treaty that’s enabled us to achieve what we have.

Charles:

Yeah, and we’ll be talking a bit more about that later because it is important for people to understand that this is treaty 1.0 when it comes to statewide, and there’s still so much more to come. So for all those people who were disappointed that it didn’t dive deep into justice, housing, education, that’s still on the cards and we will be yarning about that in a few minutes. Under the current legislation though, before parliament, the Assembly has significantly broader powers or the Assembly in the future will have significantly broader powers, and these are fairly clearly stated on the Assembly’s website. But just briefly, they encompass things such as running the Victorian Aboriginal Honor Roll, re-establishment as a permanent body, and of course making decisions on the appointment of first peoples to specific identified roles and positions that typically the government would have done before. So given the current members were not elected on a platform of holding these powers and decision-making powers, just when do you expect that these will come into play with respect to the next assembly elections, which are I believe in 2026?

Rueben:

Yeah, so the elections will happen before these powers come into effect, and that’s something I’ve personally always been very, very mindful of, of the mandate of what we’ve been elected for. That was really important to me for the first assembly when we were just elected to put in place the process for treaty-making for this term of the Assembly, where it’s about negotiating a treaty and be very clear that the members will need to be re-elected if the community chooses or there’s a new set of elections for who will take up these roles for that future assembly.

Charles:

And do you expect that the geographic breakdown, so the five regions, are still going to remain the same?

Rueben:

Yeah, so that’s not dictated to by the legislation itself. That’s still in the hands of currently the Assembly to set those parameters and then the future body as well. We are looking at different considerations around exactly where those boundaries are. That’s still a work in progress because we hear from some community members they feel more connected to certain regions than others, but that’s a balancing act. We’ll continue to follow through from our own internal process. But really importantly, not something that the bill specifies as it has to be X or Y. We always trying to make sure that this bill only contained the level of detail that it needed to contain so that it was a self-determined process how we’ll implement those things.

Charles:

So what we’re discussing this afternoon is not necessarily going to be constricted to just the bill itself as it is before parliament right now. As we’ve discussed previously, this is the first, and we mentioned earlier, of what could potentially be any number of statewide treaties, treaties that focus on key areas such as health, education, justice, housing, and the list goes on, quite frankly. Is this something you expect this current incarnation of the Assembly to undertake at any level, even the preparatory level, or is it intended to be the sole responsibility of Assembly 3.0?

Rueben:

So yeah, the future subject matters, we’ve agreed on future subject matters with the state. It’s not intended that this current iteration of the Assembly would be negotiating those. The one particular element that is still possible for us to pursue now is around The Self-Determination Fund. And when that was established, it was clearly identified that those funds that were provided were just for the first purpose of The Self-Determination Fund around supporting traditional owners in treaty-making. The second purpose of wealth and prosperity hasn’t been accounted for, and that’s been identified in the treaty as an aspect where there may well be ongoing conversations prior to the establishment of the new body.

Charles:

So would this future financial organization replace The Self-Determination Fund or would they work side by side?

Rueben:

Yeah, to my mind, it all sits under the umbrella of The Self-Determination Fund, that it just has different components. So it sits within that spectrum of Self-Determination Fund work.

Charles:

When it comes to some of the aspirational points within the legislation such as the Outcomes and Justice Commission and other bodies that are set up that may be independent such as covering issues such as truth-telling, for example, do you expect members to be drawn from the Assembly or will a net be cast somewhat wider?

Rueben:

Yeah, so it’s pretty clear within the treaty and the bill itself and that the members of the accountability mechanism and the members of the truth-telling component, they are not to be members of the Assembly. They’re chosen by the Assembly, but they’re not members of the Assembly.

Charles:

But the net is being cast across the state?

Rueben:

Absolutely.

Charles:

Let’s talk about the First Peoples Institute, something that you and I have talked briefly about before, but something I know is also close to the heart of many members of the Assembly. So what’s the current vision for that, its key functions, and importantly, any potential crossover into the established government education system?

Rueben:

Yeah, so the intention there is to make sure that we can strengthen the existing skills and capability of our community with a particular focus on the new sorts of roles we see coming into play for the treaty era, whether that’s to be members of the Assembly, whether that’s to be in key leadership roles, policy people. All that sort of stuff, we need to make sure we’ve got as many of our mob being able to fill those roles. And so it’s how do we build those skills up in those areas? There’s no fixed idea of what that looks like just yet. That’s going to involve lengthy conversations with our community and our experts about what that should look like. That’s the short-term aspiration. The much longer-term aspiration is whether or not it can eventually evolve into a more formal educational institution. And in the short term, it’s just about making sure we can have the right skills and capability for these roles.

Charles:

So there is no crossover with the current education system?

Rueben:

Not with the current education system.

Charles:

Okay. So why then is that being embedded within Treaty? Why does that need to be within legislation given that it’s just a straightforward initiative? Can’t the Assembly just do that, or does it require funding through the treaty mechanism?

Rueben:

Yeah, so it’s actually listed within the bill as an example of the type of thing we can do. So there’s no actual specific reference to the institute as what it entails and what it might do, it’s really just saying this is a body that’s now being created that has the ability to make any sort of subsidiaries that it wants, which could include, for example, a First Peoples Institute. And that’s one of the ones we’ve had most in front of I mind when we’ve been thinking about that.

Charles:

What are some of the others that maybe you’ve had in mind that you expect could well happen even in an aspirational world under treaty in the new age?

Rueben:

Yeah, there’s nothing else in particular at this point in time that I think we’ve got an idea for, it’s really just knowing that we have the ability to not just limit this assembly to be its current kind of structures, but to be able to say it can evolve and adapt and be self-determined about how it might evolve in the future and not be constrained by what the bill might say it is right now.

Charles:

Let’s stay with education for a bit and clearly stated throughout the modern treaty process’ history has always been the intention to teach the true history of these lands to all students in Victoria, and this is something that’s been supported strongly by the Yoorrook Justice Commission, of course. Just how long and difficult or hopefully easy do you expect this path to be achieve that?

Rueben:

Yeah, so we’re building on the existing mechanisms that already exist in terms of curriculum processes, and we’re going to make sure we’re with our experts in that space as well. And I think we’re quite fortunate that we do have Yoorrook now with the official public record, so there’s not really a question about what are the resources we need to use for truth-telling, we have the resource for truth-telling. It’s just a case of working with the experts in those fields to say, “What content is most relevant for primary school kids? What’s most relevant for senior school kids?” So that we can make sure there is that better understanding about the history of First Peoples as told by First Peoples.

Charles:

Has work already started on that, even at an exploratory level?

Rueben:

Not within the Assembly, but I’m sure there’s people thinking about it already, absolutely.

Charles:

Optimistically, what do you expect the pathway to be on that one? What would you like to see realistically occur along the way to achieving that? And I’m talking about across primary and secondary.

Rueben:

What does the final outcome look like or-

Charles:

Yeah, the final outcome and the timeline.

Rueben:

Yeah, I couldn’t really answer on the timeframes. I’ve been thinking about today for a very long time and thinking about past today, that’s something for tomorrow, but the idea that all kids in public schools, they have a deep understanding of first peoples’ histories, and that then gives them a greater appreciation of first peoples’ cultures, that that’s not just something that happens ad hocly or every now and then, that’s a built-in way to how Victorians learn, and that’s my aspiration.

Charles:

So let’s talk about the Assembly from now until the next elections because all the effort has been towards getting to this point today, the 9th of September 2025. From now up until the next elections, what are the key focuses? And I know it’s really unfair less than two hours after tabling the bill, but what are those key aspirations?

Rueben:

From my perspective, there are two key things that I think we should be focusing on as the Assembly. One is the transition process. We want to make sure that when the new body is elected, the new members come into play, that there’s a really solid foundation they can pick up with and run with because we need this to be successful as quickly as possible. That’s a really key part of the future success. So setting up that transition process so that all the things can be in place to make that transition as smooth as possible, that’s a really key focus and there’s a lot of work that sits behind that because the bill has a lot of components to it that will need to be addressed, and there’s a lot of new initiatives that will need to happen to make that a reality. So that’s the first component to make a good transition.

The second focus from my perspective is to make sure that we get as many of our community as possible enrolled and be part of this process, to see themselves in this process. So that people who are already enrolled, they make sure that their friends, their family, their colleagues who are eligible are also enrolled. And then we expand that to just show the great strength and unity we have behind this process.

Charles:

And just a reminder the audience, that enrollments are not just for Victorian traditional owners, it is any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person 16 years and older who’s been living in Victoria for three years or more. So enroll is simply something that I’ll say. On and off the record, you and I have spoken on numerous occasions about the need for non-Victorian traditional owners and Torres Strait Islander voices to be heard in the statewide treaty process. Where is that currently standing as initiative within the Assembly?

Rueben:

Yeah, that’s seen as a really important initiative within the Assembly and we are looking at a variety of different ways. How do we engage with particular sectors of the community? So we’ve been doing some significant work with the ACCOs about how do we ensure our community-controlled organizations, that their input is directly going into our work. We’ve been doing work with the traditional owner organizations in a similar vein. And we’ve got a similar approach we’re taking for what we describe as Treaty for All for people who are not traditional owners from here in Victoria, but are Aboriginal.

Charles:

So what are some of the challenges that you believe that stand before the Assembly with regard to building up that enthusiasm and that support within the non-Victorian traditional owner community?

Rueben:

Yeah, I think it’s really key to say that there is a role for them within this space. We still do hear people say, “That’s not for me. I’m not from this place.” But hopefully now with a deeper understanding of what we’re achieving through this first statewide treaty to see it will have impacts on all Aboriginal people living in this place and Torres Strait Islander peoples that gives them the initiative to say, “Actually I should be involved in this.”

Charles:

Let’s talk about impacts, and it’s something that we’ve spoken about a number of times before. But advocates of treaty, and look, I’m one of them, often state that treaty in Victoria has the potential to benefit all Victorians, just like we knew that the voice, got to bring that up, was going to benefit all Australians. In what ways does the Assembly see that benefits will come to all Victorians, and talking about concrete results?

Rueben:

Yeah, I think there’s many different ways and I think there’s also a limit to how much I can say the benefit will be.

Charles:

Sure.

Rueben:

I think a lot of what the benefit will be is for non-Aboriginal people to contemplate and consider themselves, but what I see from my perspective is particularly around the ability to better connect with our culture through enhanced place names across the state, which is a key component of this process, to be able to then connect and understand the history of those places through that on another level. It’s not one-to-one direct correlation, but it’s that expanded impact. Look at a lot of the powerful work of Uncle Paul Briggs and saying, “We have so many members of the Aboriginal community are not participating in the economy like other people are.” And if we can tap into that, if we can enhance that particularly in the regions, we’ll see wealth creation in those regions that doesn’t just benefit First Peoples, it benefits small businesses in those towns, the businesses, the hotel owners in those towns. The economic benefits for all Victorians when First Peoples are thriving is huge.

Charles:

And we see that through initiatives introduced by organizations such as Kinaway, of course.

Rueben:

Absolutely.

Charles:

Okay. Challenges, let’s just look at challenges because it’s all well and good. And I hate to rain in your parade, Rueben, but you are a sensible man, you know full well it’s not going to be easy roads right now until passage through legislation. Share a few of your thoughts or concerns about the next several months as this passes through. The machinations of this colonial construct we know is Victorian parliament.

Rueben:

So in terms of the actual numbers of it passing through parliament, I don’t have a great concern in that regard.

Charles:

But that’s the lower house. Surely the upper house has got to be a bit different.

Rueben:

No, the Upper House as well, we’ve been having very lengthy conversations with the cross-bench over a number of years now, and they’ve publicly come out and shown their support, including the Greens, the Animal Justice Party, the Legalise Cannabis Party are very, very supportive of the work we’ve been doing, which gives the numbers in the upper house as needed. The larger concern to me is how the opposition chooses to frame these conversations. They may well just say, “Okay, it’s going to pass, so let’s let it pass,” or they may well weaponize it as we’ve sadly seen too often. It does begin to grate on me and it takes a lot for things to grate on me, as you might well know.

Charles:

I know that very well, yeah.

Rueben:

That this sense of they support closing the gap, but they don’t support treaty. We’ve now gone to great lengths to articulate that treaty is a key way of closing the gap. So that can’t be used from my perspective as an excuse anymore to not support treaty.

Charles:

Especially when they don’t have an alternative plan in place, do they, to close the gaps?

Rueben:

Indeed.

Charles:

Important thing. Rueben, just before we head off, let’s just talk about the accountability of Assembly 3.0 and that’s accountability to community and to meeting its obligations under which it will be elected in 2026. Do you see any significant changes there given that it’s going to be a much more powerful and influential body of people?

Rueben:

Yeah, absolutely. That’s something we’ve always been very, very mindful of. And there’s a whole section in the bill that talks about this concept of community answerability, and there’s a whole lot of processes and procedures that have to be designed with community about what that looks like. So hopefully it’s going to be very clear to community how they’ll be involved in certain types of decisions. So if there’s a decision about where we buy our pens from, might not be that involved. If there’s decisions that will come about how we might undertake that process around confirmation of aboriginality, there will be a much greater level of involvement for community in those processes. So it’ll be very clear to community how they participate, how they get involved, and how they get feedback about the processes, and that’s all specified within the legislation.

Charles:

Now, that’s interesting you bring that up, and I know I said that would be the last question, but it does bring to mind a post I saw on LinkedIn today on how people would be identified or certified as Aboriginal people. Obviously, there’s going to be that distinct lack of understanding as that post clearly states, but when it comes to reporting back to community on really personal, deeply personal things such as confirmation of aboriginality, just where do you see that happening? Let’s just nail that one on the head.

Rueben:

Yeah, so the Aboriginal Justice Caucus have been doing a lot of work on this for a lot of time, and so we tend to be working very closely with them on what this might look like. It’s not going to be the case that the 33 members are going to go off by themselves and all of a sudden come out with, “Here’s our plan.” It’s working with traditional owner groups, it’s working with Aboriginal community controlled organizations, it’s working with key experts in this area to say, “What do we as a collective want to do about this process? How do we make sure that there’s not rogue operators out there just handing out certificates willy-nilly? What’s the process that we as a first peoples’ community agree should be the process?” That’s what we’re putting in place. That’s a self-determined process.

Charles:

Now, we’re going to leave it at that for right now. Rueben has asked me to come in and do, was it a 90-minute session, at some stage over the next couple of weeks? So what I’m going to do right now is just ask all our listeners that if you have any questions about the current treaty legislation, the process, what I need to do with that, maybe Assembly 3.0, then please get onto our website, vicaboriginalnews.com.au, flick those questions through. We will put them together and we have that opportunity to put those questions to Rueben Berg, co-chair of the First Peoples’ Assembly.

Rueben, I really want to thank you for being the first cab off the rank when it came to extended interviews. I look forward to yarning again in a couple of weeks where we sit down for quite a while over a couple of cups of tea and really get into the deep dive of the treaty legislation. Congratulations, my friend.

Rueben:

Thank you. Always a pleasure to talk to you and greatly appreciate your work.