LISTEN TO PART ONE HERE

LISTEN TO PART TWO HERE

Charles Pakana:

So self-determination, we haven’t actually mentioned that previously, but self-determination is in the preamble at both the Treaty legislation and also the Treaty itself. Just how much do you think these documents go towards achieving that self-determination, or at least establishing a foundation for self-determination?

Rueben Berg:

I would say further than anything we’ve seen before in this state.

Charles:

In what ways?

Rueben:

Well, we now have a body that is ultimately making decisions about things. As an example, the Victorian Aboriginal Heritage Council we mentioned before, that was a powerful initiative at its time to say, well, in terms of appointing those registered Aboriginal parties, it will be that council of Aboriginal people to make that ultimate decision. But it still sat within the framework of ministerial oversight. We’ve now elevated up even one more level. So there’s not ministerial oversight around it. It ultimately sits with the First Peoples making those decisions.

Charles:

It is still quite foundational though, because when you think of self-determination, you’re thinking of economic, you’re thinking of education, I mean, everything. Essentially, it’s achieving that level of equity before we can be treated with equality. So we’ve still got a long way to go. Let’s just break out of what we’re talking about right now and talk about some of the key things, just briefly, that you would see in Treaties 2, 3, 4, 5. And I know that’s for the next Assemblies, but let’s say you come back on or let’s say you are involved in negotiations, what are some of the things that you, personally, as an Aboriginal man involved in Treaty for so long, would be advocating for in future Treaties?

Rueben:

That’s a great question, and we do have the subject matters that we’ve negotiated for what future Statewide Treaties could look like, could encompass. But to me, a foundational part of what those future Statewide Treaties has to deal with is the recommendations from Yoorrook. We’ve heard now across four years what our community thinks should be changing in a whole raft of spaces in education, in housing and health. And to me that would be the blueprint about what we need to be implementing in that future Statewide Treaties.

There’s other things as well that I think are beyond that, which include the recognition of the key role of sport within our communities and making sure that we can actually participate in sport and in our community sporting activities in a way where not every year our sporting teams are having to go and scrimp and scrounge to try and work out how can they even get the money to attend. How can we make sure that all members of our community can participate in those sporting things, which we know brings so much joy and confidence into our lives as First Peoples.

Charles:

You mentioned sport as one particular instance. What other things?

Rueben:

I think in terms of the water space, there has been some standards we’ve put in place.

Charles:

And this is your area of expertise, isn’t it, water management, of course?

Rueben:

One of them. So we have got achievements through this first Statewide Treaty around the trading of cultural flows between Traditional Owner groups so that if Traditional Owners do acquire cultural flows and they want to share that with other neighboring groups or groups in other parts of the state, they can create our own system for how we might want to trade that, not bypassing the existing systems but complementing those existing systems.

When I think more broadly about something like the Victorian Environmental Water Holder, which looks at water across the whole state, I think we most likely should implement some form of Aboriginal water holder across the whole state where Traditional Owner groups can opt in to ensure that there is water available across the whole state to get better outcomes for our waterways in a way that’s completely led by First Peoples.

Charles:

So let’s just get back to the current Statewide Treaty and bring in the Traditional Owner Treaty. How will the Statewide Treaty explicitly support and integrate with the ongoing Traditional Owner Treaty negotiations and future negotiations?

Rueben:

So it’s been identified that there can be a role for the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria in those Traditional Owner Treaty processes. That’s obviously at the subject to the wishes of the Traditional Owner groups negotiating those Traditional Owner Treaties. But I’d imagine there’d be great benefit in having the insight from the future Assembly around what’s happening across the whole state, what happened as part of the negotiations of Statewide Treaty to help influence and inform those Traditional Owner Treaty processes.

And also I think a key role for the future Assembly in coordinating across Traditional Owner groups about what their aspirations might be, because I think oftentimes there’s strength in numbers and so if one Traditional Owner group is trying to go about achieving water rights through Treaty in one way and another group is going about it a completely different way that can create some-

Charles:

Counter productive, of course.

Rueben:

Exactly. So we can help coordinate some of those conversations so that Traditional Owner groups are all coming to the state and saying, “We want water rights in this way,” there’s a much greater chance they’re going to succeed rather than coming at it in five different ways.

Charles:

Now, the Treaty is scheduled for review every five years. So what are some of the key indicators that you imagine, will the Assembly be prioritizing during those reviews to demonstrate its impact and success?

Rueben:

To be honest, I think one of the key things is a question you asked before about the level of bureaucracy that might exist within the Assembly, the future Assembly in Gellung Warl, and I think to me that’s going to be a key measure of the success, that we haven’t just replicated flawed government systems within how the Gellung Warl undertakes its business. That it isn’t adding unnecessary complexity to things, but it is helping to streamline things. And using that metaphor I spoke about before, it is using that lens to focus the expertise into the right places of government. They’re the sorts of things I’d be assessing about how successful this has been after five years.

Charles:

So that’s a lot of internal reflection. I assume you’re going to be relying heavily on, for example, your Elders group and other groups that you are establishing going forward to provide that feedback. Just what role do you see those bodies having going forward into the next Assembly and the role they might have on future Treaties?

Rueben:

Yeah, I think making sure we’ve got that enhanced role for our Elders within that Elders’ Voice process, which we spend a lot of time now developing across many years of the Assembly. I’m really passionate and interested in the role that our Elders can play in terms of member accountability. So we’re looking at enhanced responsibilities, enhanced powers for this future Assembly, and with that has to come enhanced accountability. And I think it will be quite powerful to ensure there’s a really strong role for Elders within a region to sit down with members from that region and really have upfront conversations about what’s working, what’s not working in terms of how they’re undertaking their business so we can make sure we’re delivering the best outcomes we can.

Charles:

And what about Youth Voice?

Rueben:

Absolutely. That’s also critical to get those different perspectives. I think that we’ve had less, not as much time to be able to focus on that youth work because it was a predetermined concept, the Elders’ Voice, when the Assembly first started and the Youth Voice has been a complimentary thing we’ve been developing.

And alongside that is the work for the Treaty For All, in terms of making sure that the views of First Peoples who are not Traditional Owners from here in Victoria, because all the different things we’re talking about, so many of those will have an impact not just on Traditional Owners here in Victoria, but any First Peoples. And so strengthening and making sure we’ve got really strong systems around engaging with that community is also key.

Charles:

The Aboriginal electoral role, because you mentioned non-Victorian or First Peoples not of Victoria initially, apparently about 40% of the current Aboriginal electoral role are those people. How do you see that the future Assembly and the engagement work will further develop and extend that particular role?

Rueben:

Yeah, again, I know sometimes you ask me questions and I don’t have the answers, but it’s because-

Charles:

It’s a tough one. I mean-

Rueben:

No, no, but I think it’s because I shouldn’t have the answers. It’s not for me to decide what that should look like. We are having conversations, which is great to have you part of those, about how we can enhance that engagement with all First Peoples, whether they are Traditional Owners or not. And so it’s not for me to say what that looks like or what success looks like in that space. That’s going to be a question we ask those members of our community to see if we’re successful.

Charles:

And look, that’s a fair enough comment, Rueben, because we do know that people don’t necessarily like voting and given that this is an optional thing to do rather than compulsory, that’s understandable.

Rueben, let’s now touch on the Treaty Authority. What’s the role of the Treaty Authority in resolving disputes between Gellung Warl and the State? Because it has been outlined in one of the schedules of the legislation.

Rueben:

Yeah, that’s right. In terms of implementing the Treaty. So we’ve got an agreement to this Treaty. We’ve got an agreement to this piece of legislation. And there may well be, as we go to implementing that, some issues that are raised about the future Assembly might think it should have been implemented one way and the state might interpret it another way. It’s really important to have a role there for the Treaty Authority to try and help resolve some of those matters, to facilitate those conversations, and do so, as they have throughout their process so far, in a really culturally strong way.

Charles:

Rueben, I’d really like to know what are the mechanisms in place, if any, to ensure that the Treaty’s benefits reach all Aboriginal people in Victoria, not just all Victorians. We will come onto that one later. We’ve spoken about it several times over the years, but all Aboriginal Victorian people.

Rueben:

Yeah, I’ve mentioned it a couple of times now, but it really is important to highlight is that community answerability framework, is the thing that will guide how the future Assembly and Gellung Warl does its work and how it intersects with community. So to give everyone great confidence that it’s not just the 33 people going off into a room and coming up with ideas. It’s about making sure there is that accountability. And I’m really keen to see a much stronger regional focus in this future Assembly. And so at the moment we’ve got the five regions, but there’s still very much a sense of a centralized hub. I think we want to see Assembly being based out in regions so it’s not a case of where you have to come back to the central office to get policy advice or to get administrative support. It all exist within our regions.

Charles:

You’ve already got regional offices though. Are you expecting to extend that?

Rueben:

Yeah, I think we’d like to see an enhanced presence within those regions so that they’re a one-stop shop to intersect with the Assembly and find out and make sure we’re tapping into the interests of communities within those regions.

Charles:

Now, in these capability frameworks that you’re talking about, it’s important to emphasize, once again, that this is not just for Victorian Traditional Owners, this is for all Aboriginal Victorians. Is that correct?

Rueben:

Absolutely, and it really is when you think of all the different things we’re trying to achieve through this first Statewide Treaty, there’s so many different aspects of that that will affect First Peoples regardless of whether they’re Traditional Owners here in Victoria or not. And that’s why we continue to encourage all First Peoples in this state to make sure they enroll and be part of this process in terms of voting for their members, but also participating in our discussions and our conversations because it is so critical to have all those different perspectives as part of that.

Charles:

Over the next 12 months or less than 12 months, what’s the role of the Assembly now, apart from hopefully celebrating the passage of legislation?

Rueben:

There is a lot of work still to do to get us ready for the Gellung Warl. So we know that the Gellung Warl will start in May next year and then we’ll have more formally kick off in July. And we’re working on what we internally refer to as a gift of work to hand over to that future body. We can’t make decisions for them. They’re going to be newly elected. It’s going to be, could well be similar people get re-elected, but we can’t make decisions on their behalf. But what we can do is we can prepare plans, we can prepare ideas and say, “Well, here’s our thinking about what you might want to do to hit the ground running.” So we are preparing that now and working with our community about what that might look now so that when the new Gellung Warl does start, it’s got some things that it can straight away get into work.

Charles:

What are some of the key challenges you’re facing in this? Because it’s a momentous task.

Rueben:

So if you look at something like the substantive rule-making powers, how do you go about making substantive rules? What’s a process you should do? So we are thinking through now what a model rule could be about how you might want to do that, just so that you don’t walk in and start with a blank piece of paper. We’re trying to make sure there’s some model rules, some templates of saying, “Okay, you could take this approach or you might not want to take that approach,” but something so you don’t just walk in with a, “Right, blank paper. Off you go.”

Charles:

And what about in preparation for the truth-telling component? Any work being done on that?

Rueben:

I think that’s very much a focus in terms of how the Yoorrook process is rolled out and the work of the State Library in terms of its work and the current reflections on the truth-telling process.

Charles:

We need to also talk about funding. This is not going to be a cheap affair, let’s be quite frank about that. What’s been put in place in the legislation and in the Treaty to provide adequate funding for these initiatives?

Rueben:

So there’s referred to as a special appropriation within the bill to support these processes. And that enables this process to be distinct from the normal budgetary cycles, so that rather than each year some level of uncertainty about whether X amount of dollars will be provided or not, it’s built into the legislation so that before government goes through its budgetary processes, X amount of dollars is allocated to the work of the Gellung Warl and then they go through their budgetary process to decide where the additional funds are going to be.

Charles:

Who’s actually going to manage those funds? Because right now, when we think about funding for Treaty, we think about the Self-Determination Fund, but that’s more about getting Traditional Owner groups Treaty ready. So I imagine it’s somewhat different.

Rueben:

So the operational funding will sit with the Gellung Warl, but we have broad aspirations still for that Self-Determination Fund, that it can go beyond just that Purpose One, which is supporting Traditional Owners and move into that Purpose Two, which is much more about building wealth and prosperity for First Peoples. That’s part of an ongoing future discussion, but that’s something we recognize as being really, really critical to ensure we can have some level of economic independence and the ability to invest in our own ideas and our own people as part of that.

Charles:

So I noticed talking about the money, that the bill has a commitment to defined and legislated appropriations, and that’s intended to protect Gellung Warl from political whims and budget cuts. How effective do you see that’s going to be?

Rueben:

It’s the strongest form of budgetary security you can get within the Victorian process. So that’s what we’re able to secure, which is quite powerful in terms of this process.

Charles:

So one of the big concerns has always been that if there is a change of mindset on behalf of any government, then the easiest way to strangle this process is financially rather than repealing legislation. Do you see that what’s been put into the current legislation as sufficient to protect it from those changes in mindset?

Rueben:

So whether it’s sufficient or not is probably a different question, but it’s the strongest level of protection that’s possible within this system. And so it means that rather than a minister deciding how much money might be distributed to a certain organization, it has to be the whole of parliament would have to decide if they wanted to change any of these parts of the legislation.

Charles:

Whose decision was that or whose idea was that? Because that’s obviously someone with a great deal of legal and bureaucratic experience to bring that into place.

Rueben:

Well, it’s a similar model to the model for the Treaty Authority.

Charles:

Right. With regard to some reflections of this Treaty and calls to action, what do you believe is the single most important cultural shift in relation to the Victorian culture, not just the Aboriginal culture, that this Treaty is designed to bring it about across the state?

Rueben:

If I think about it from a broader Victorian perspective, my hope and aspiration in terms of the work we’ve done is a cultural shift in terms of that great sense of pride of what we’ve been able to achieve. And that Victoria, whilst we are catching up globally, has been able to lead the way here in Victoria of resetting that relationship between First Peoples and the state.

Charles:

And what about to other states, because I know that Naomi Moran and other commissioners and leaders of Treaty around the country are really looking to see what’s happening here. What are some of the key wins that you want them to walk away with to think that they can then implement in their state or territory?

Rueben:

I think the key thing is to show that it’s possible, that you can do this. And to be able to show maybe naysayers within their own community that this is possible and the sky hasn’t fallen down, that there’s lots of fearmongering that goes with these sorts of things. And to now have a tangible example of where there has been Treaty-making. And I have great confidence that we’ll be successful, to be able to then reflect on that as other jurisdictions and say, “Well, you raised all these concerns, but this has happened to Victoria and none of those concerns have come to be.” So that’s where I think it provides a powerful example.

Charles:

So what are some of the concerns that have really come up over the past seven years or six years that the Assembly has been in place that you believe now, if you were that vindictive, you could throw back in the face of the naysayers and say, “Well, I told you so. The sky’s not fallen down”?

Rueben:

Yes. Well, I think we’ve always heard that notion that this will stall government, government won’t be able to do anything because you’re having to engage with First People. So we’ve shown that’s not the case. Across the six years we’ve had the Assembly in place, I think there’s always been these concerns of dividing by race, which I think is always such a curious notion about how we approach these conversations and a very narrow focus. And to my mind, when I think about this concept of dividing by race, I think it ignores so many different things as part of that conversation. When I think about what we’re doing through this work, it’s about recognition of inherent rights of First Peoples. It’s about recognition of shared family histories, and it’s a recognition about that lived experience of First Peoples.

Charles:

You’ve been speaking to community, First Nations community and non-aboriginal community a hell of a lot over the past six years. During 2023, we saw that 40% of Australians were emphatically supportive of our voice to Parliament. 60%, no. Do you believe that this Treaty will do a great deal in promoting more goodwill within Australians and Victorians?

Rueben:

I think absolutely it will. And I think there was just a report out today in terms of the multicultural community coming out to show their support for the work of Treaty. And I think those sorts of initiatives will just continue where we can have more Victorians and hopefully more Australians supporting this type of work.

Charles:

Rueben, before we head off, one other point I wanted to cover off on was the cultural safety standards. What are we talking about there? How will they be implemented and what are the benefits?

Rueben:

Yeah, so it’s one of these powers of the future Assembly, is to be able to actually develop cultural safety guidelines working with our community about what it actually means for an organization to be culturally safe or culturally competent.

Charles:

Yeah, just when you say an organization, you’re talking about any organization out there in Victoria, whether it’s local government, private, public?

Rueben:

That’s right. So the body will be able to define what cultural safety is, come up with a definition of that, and then it will be up to other bodies to decide, that’d be their choice, an opt-in process, to actually get accredited with that Assembly process. So it’s almost like the heart tick of approval, Heart Foundation tick of approval. I think it’ll be something that many organizations want to say, “Yeah.” If they’re talking about being culturally competent and culturally safe organizations, they’ll be able to go through this accreditation process in the future and say, “Yeah, we’ve gone through a process that’s endorsed by the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria and being recognized as a culturally safe organization.” And I think that’s going to be really powerful.

Charles:

And that’ll actually be by the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria, and not by one of the other bodies itself?

Rueben:

That’s through the First Peoples’ Assembly, yeah.

Charles:

So this I assume, would be designed to be somewhat generic in nature, given the enormously different work environments that exist out there in Victoria?

Rueben:

Well, it could have different categories as well. It could say, “For educational facilities, this is what it means to be culturally competent. For health organizations, this is what it means.” There’s scope to have that bespoke nature to it, but it means that First Peoples are able to lead that process. And yeah, I think it’s going to be of great interest for organizations out there with reconciliation action plans. Trying to think about how do they go further, this is going to be one of those powerful ways of saying, “Well, if you’re claiming to be a culturally safe body, you can get accredited through a First Peoples-led process.”

Charles:

Why was that considered important enough to come into this first Treaty and not left to something to do with, for example, health and mental health?

Rueben:

So it was a constant balance, I think, through this Statewide Treaty negotiation process of saying, “We want to create this body, this Gellung Warl, that is capable of doing certain things.” And it’s often quite not enough to just say you’re capable of doing X or Y, it’s good to give it some tangible examples of what that is. So this was one tangible example of a body that’s able to make standards and guidelines. And then we hope over time to add additional standards and guidelines that the body can create. But it gives life to those powers and functions to say, “Not just does it have the power to make standards and guidelines, here’s some examples of standards and guidelines that it can make.”

Charles:

I would assume that given this is included within Treaty itself, is this something that you would be encouraging, strongly encouraging, state government to adopt as well?

Rueben:

Absolutely.

Charles:

Rueben, what’s the last message you want to send to young Aboriginal Victorians about the opportunities and responsibilities that this Treaty era will bring? And we’re talking specifically to young Aboriginal Victorians.

Rueben:

We’re entering into this Treaty era now where Treaty is not just some aspiration or some lofty goal into the future. We’re going to be in this space where Treaties already exist, and through that there’s going to be so many opportunities for members of our community to step up and lead and show the path of how we want to undertake this business.

And so there are countless possibilities into the future about where we might find ourselves as First Peoples. And a key issue is we’re creating that First Peoples’ Institute to support those conversations as well. But there are going to be countless opportunities for our future leaders to step up, participate, whether that is as leaders out in front as co-chairs, or whether that’s leading from behind, whether that’s in policy work, in engaging with our communities. There’s so many opportunities that are going to exist in this Treaty space, and it’s going to be so powerful to see our young people step up. And who knows where they’re going to take it after that.

Charles:

A supplementary question before I let you go, Rueben, what about to the allies and collaborators out there who’ve been shoulder-to-shoulder with us for so long?

Rueben:

Yeah, it’s so important to continue to have the support of our allies to continue to amplify the messages of First Peoples and to visibly show their support for this Treaty making process.

Charles:

Rueben Berg, thanks for your time.

Rueben:

My pleasure.

LISTEN TO PART ONE HERE

LISTEN TO PART TWO HERE