Charles Pakana:

One of the most contentious social relationships within Australia is typically between marginalised and disenfranchised peoples and police. In Victoria, this has been particularly prevalent with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. In addressing this, Victoria Police has recognised the need to bridge the gap, and one of the ways in which it is doing this is by means of Aboriginal Community Liaison Officers, ACLOs, as they’re often known. One such ACLO is Bunurong, Mutti Mutti, Yorta Yorta woman, Aunty Evajo Edwards, who joins me today on the program. Aunty Evajo, it’s always great to catch up with you.

Aunty Evajo Edwards:

Pleasure’s mine.

Charles:

Aunty, let’s dive into it. I would like to start off with an understanding about your historical relationship and your family’s historical relationship with the police. Not all roses, is it?

Aunty Evajo:

Absolutely not. And I guess being a stolen generation survivor, my earliest memory was being removed with police involved and being put in the back of the car and taken to a police station and then shanghaied down to Melbourne, so my negativity had sat within me for all that time.

Charles:

Now, that was back in the ’50s, ’60s?

Aunty Evajo:

1969, we was removed.

Charles:

Right.

Aunty Evajo:

So it was a long time to hold a lot of bitterness and a lot of hatred towards that uniform, so it’s been quite a journey being in the position that I am today.

Charles:

But what are some of the remarkable things or the most memorable incidents, positive and negative, with police before you took on this role?

Aunty Evajo:

Look, there’d been a few negative incidences over the decades, but nothing to be, I don’t know, that upset about.

Charles:

But you do have a distrust because you and I have spoken about this before. You have a distrust of a lot of the supporting systems that seem to be aligned with the police. We won’t name them specifically, but there is that deep mistrust.

Aunty Evajo:

Oh, absolutely. And I think that comes with colonisation. It comes with that 170 years of policing where the uniform hasn’t been kind to us as a nation of people, so with the Royal Commission of Aboriginal Deaths in Custody.

Charles:

Yeah, that was huge.

Aunty Evajo:

And it was huge. And I guess our positions came out of that, our clothes as well as our PALOs. And a PALO is a Police Aboriginal Liaison Officer. And they’re not necessarily Aboriginal, but they are police officers, sworn members that take on extra position to help bridge our gaps. But I think with the 170 years of really bad policing and the injustices that Aboriginal people have had to endure, and those layers and layers of traumas have been filtered down to us. So the mistrust continues and I sit in this position to hopefully help make change. And they’re really hard positions because it is literally working in two worlds. I’ve already lived in two worlds being a survivor of stolen gen, but now trying to convince my community that not every police officer’s a bad officer.

Charles:

It’s interesting, when I was first told on the Great Vine that, yeah, Aunty Evajo’s taken up this ACLO position, you really could have knocked me over with a feather because that’s the last career choice I would’ve thought for you given that for so long you’ve been advocating for stolen generations people, you’ve been working with stolen generations, you’ve been not just experiencing and living your own trauma, but the trauma of others who are also involved. What led you to take on this role with VicPol?

Aunty Evajo:

Interesting enough, I’ve actually wanted the role for quite some time.

Charles:

You’ve got to explain that.

Aunty Evajo:

I know. And I think I guess I was working on, I was part of Reconciliation City of Whittlesea and we’d have our meetings and you’d have your police come to those things. And I guess I always was a bit dubious, but it was that Christmas do we’re all in our Sunday best. That’s what you want to call it. Oh, goodness. But I didn’t recognise the police officer. Then I recognised, “Oh my goodness. I’m painting him with the same tar brush that I get painted because he’s someone’s son, someone’s father, someone’s uncle, someone’s brother.” And it was just more the fact that the difference was that he gets to take that uniform off to blend into society.

Charles:

Yeah, of course.

Aunty Evajo:

Where I’m like this 24/7, 365 days a year.

Charles:

So was that a turning point for you?

Aunty Evajo:

It actually was. And I still have had a few incidences with some officers on a personal note, but it’s not a bad thing. But I think that was my realisation, and I’ve known a couple of people that were in those positions, but I was always in positions within my community that I loved doing, especially working with stolen gen, working in corrections with our mob. So I’ve worked in quite a few areas.

Charles:

But you’ve also been on the Koori Courts, what, 10 years now?

Aunty Evajo:

Oh, 10 years next month.

Charles:

Goodness.

Aunty Evajo:

And that’s gone so quick. I always think it’s only five years, but I do things to help make change. It’s not there to tick a box or if I see that I’m passionate about something, I’ll follow it through. And working in this position is something I’m really, really passionate about.

Charles:

But what were some of the key things that made you want to be in this position? You’ve talked about the turning point for you at that Whittlesea Reconciliation Group Christmas event and seeing people in a different light, but what were some of the things that you wanted to achieve even before you took the role on?

Aunty Evajo:

I don’t know what really made me want to take it on. I just knew that I’d be good at it. Can I say it like that?

Charles:

Why not?

Aunty Evajo:

Why not? But I think we live in a society where we’ve had so much distrust.

Charles:

It’s at every level.

Aunty Evajo:

And we are allowed to. Colonisation has done so much to us as Aboriginal people, but it’s also I look at my grandkids and they want to be police officers.

Charles:

What do you think about that?

Aunty Evajo:

I love the idea.

Charles:

Why?

Aunty Evajo:

Because I think to want to make change, you have to be part of it.

Charles:

So the instruments have changed?

Aunty Evajo:

I think so. And we should be encouraging this with our kids and I get it how we’ve always been really negative and you don’t want to be like that.

Charles:

Yeah, of course.

Aunty Evajo:

All that negative. And it will be difficult when they do decide to do that. We do have Aboriginal police officers today. I look at overseas and I’ll look at New Zealand.

Charles:

Of course.

Aunty Evajo:

And I had an amazing opportunity to meet some of those really important police from New Zealand when the new chief was sworn in. But how they raised, the recruiting for mob over there, and we’ve got to do more of that. We’ve got to keep an interest. We’ve got to stay interested in these kids that want to, and if they change their minds, why is it that you’re changing your mind? And we’re all allowed to change our minds, but to think about what changes you can help. I’m one person. We have 17 ACLOs across the state and there’s 161 aboriginal people employed out of 22,000.

Charles:

Now, that includes offices on the ground and staff?

Aunty Evajo:

And sworn and unsworn members.

Charles:

Wow.

Aunty Evajo:

And we are 161.

Charles:

Out of how many, again?

Aunty Evajo:

22,000-plus, I think.

Charles:

That’s hardly representative, is it?

Aunty Evajo:

There is none.

Charles:

So what is it that you want to achieve in this particular role and couple that up with what are your specific duties, what’s required of you?

Aunty Evajo:

I think for me it’s about rebuilding these relationships. I want to, in my short time that I’m going to be here, to be able to help build these new foundations and solid ones, and build these new bridges between that uniform, and I call them my blue mob. So between my blue mob and my community, which is really, really important to me because I’ve met some amazing officers on my short time being here under two years who truly want to make a difference in our community. So I find that overwhelming at times and I would like to think very well respected because they call me Aunty, and that’s their choice, that’s not me making them do that. And they say, “How do you want me to address you?” I said, whatever you feel comfortable with. So there’s no automatic, “You’ve got to do this.” And to be able to sit down and when they’ve got a question, I’ll answer it to the best of my ability, but to allow them to understand why we’ve had this negative things and how we can change.

Charles:

So that’s bringing cultural awareness into VicPol itself, but what about establishing and healing some of the relationships that exist between the police, your blue mob, and your community itself? Because we know there’s enormous distrust as a result of trauma.

Aunty Evajo:

I think it’s one officer at a time. And that’s the only way. I mean, the more education you give somebody, they then become your pebble.

Charles:

And are you talking about mob and the police?

Aunty Evajo:

Absolutely. And I talk to my mob all the time and we are trying to put some different things in place to be able to bridge gaps. And I think it’s important. Was it May this year put on a basketball match against Victoria Police and Koorie Academy?

Charles:

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Aunty Evajo:

What an amazing day we had. I think there was a few of these elbows.

Charles:

Elbows? No dust-ups on the court though?

Aunty Evajo:

Yeah. No, no, no. We got flogged as Victoria Police.

Charles:

Well, that’s a good thing. Sorry, but yeah, that’s a good thing.

Aunty Evajo:

I know. Oh, they stack their team. But anyway, besides all that, I’ll stack it next year. But at the end of the day, that was an opportunity for all community to come together and they brought their family members. It wasn’t just the officers and kids having fun with them. Like my granddaughters came and they just had amazing day. My granddaughters walking around with a little police hat on. And that was one opportunity. We went to the tennis earlier this year and introduced some of our off-siders to the community and they’re remembered because they are going there in uniform, but as well as out of uniform. So they get to see both sides of our policing. Also, the apology of being so blessed of only being in the job a couple of months and being an MC for that event and having input in-

Charles:

Which event are we talking about?

Aunty Evajo:

The police Apology to Stolen generations.

Charles:

The police apology. Right.

Aunty Evajo:

And I got to meet the ex-chief, Shane, and I got to speak to him on my story. And he really was interested and wanted to help make change within this system. And even though some people always ask the question, “What do we have to apologise for?” But at the end of the day, these things have happened because of colonisation.

Charles:

So you bring up an interesting point, and that is the desire for change. Do you really believe, and I know I’m putting you in a bit of an awkward position here given that we’re talking about your employers, but do you really see that there is a genuine desire to bring about change and a repair of the relationship? Well, actually I shouldn’t say repair, but a strengthening of the relationship within VicPol?

Aunty Evajo:

I honestly believe there is. I do. And I have to believe that because why have we got the positions we have? Why are we in these positions? Why are we looking to have police Aboriginal liaison officers? It may have come out of the Royal Commission, but at the end of the day it’s implemented. And that’s a choice that an officer makes that they want to be a PALO. That’s not something that they’re forced to do. And it isn’t just a ticker box so they can climb the ladder, “Look what I’m doing.” They genuinely want to hopefully make a difference. So that’s how I see it. And I do believe we can. I do believe that we can build new foundations and new relationships and strengthen them to the best of our ability, but it’s one Aboriginal person at a time and it’s one police officer at a time.

Charles:

Well, let’s talk about the mob themselves and the relationships there and the challenges that you and other ACLOs face in building up some trust between mob and between the police. What are some of the key challenges there and how do you address them for goodness’s sake?

Aunty Evajo:

Oh, that’s a really hard question there. It’s a loaded question, but how do we do it? I know with me, and I can only talk for me as an ACLO.

Charles:

Sure. Yeah.

Aunty Evajo:

Our positions are to be in community to be able to break down these barriers. So there are going to be people that have bad experiences still, and there are going to be people since I’ve been starting, have been having some really good relationships and wanting to come forward and do statements and fix up their bench warrants so that they don’t have police looking over their shoulders. But it’s a really hard job to do, because I still get negative people go, “All they want to do is put our kids in jail or arrest our kids.” And I sometimes wonder, “Why are our kids out midnight?”

Charles:

Yeah, fair enough.

Aunty Evajo:

But it’s not always about wanting to arrest them. It’s about maybe asking the question, “Why are you out? Is it safe at home?” And I don’t know what they ask these kids, but at the end of the day, if you do have an issue with something that has occurred, there’s a process. Talk to your ACLO on what it is that I can do if I want to make a complaint and they’re the things that I encourage people to do. And it’s not to get anybody in trouble. It’s about making sure that we are doing our jobs correctly as police officers. And then we too as a community, we’ve got to show a bit of respect sometimes. We might not like the idea that coppers pulled us up, but at the end of the day, respect should be coming both ways.

Charles:

It’s interesting. I just want to jump in-

Aunty Evajo:

But that’s how I picture it. And just quickly too, I’ve raised my kids hating that uniform because of what they did to me.

Charles:

So how do you go about then dealing with your kids and saying, “Well, okay, we’re going back on that now”?

Aunty Evajo:

Absolutely. And we’ve done 7/20 and they respect that uniform and respect homes. And I’ve had them at my house a few times prior to working in this organisation and I know that people have stood up straight and said, “Hey, how you doing, bros?” And because it’s respect for the uniform. And I think with my journey and what I’ve had to deal with and how I’ve spoken to my kids in wanting to change that because they’re also there to serve and protect us. That is their number one job, they need to serve. And it doesn’t matter what you’ve come to my house for, but you’ve come to serve and protect me at that particular moment.

Charles:

Aunty Evajo, I want to ask you now about how you, and as far as you are aware other ACLOs, look after your own wellbeing? Because you are caught between a rock and a hard place a lot of times. And I remember without mentioning names, it was only about two weeks ago, I had a distressed young woman in my community reach out to me with an issue that was for her incredibly distressing because it was to do with her young two or 3-year-old child. I immediately put her onto you. Now, this ongoing litany of stories and trauma has got to weigh down on you. And I know you’ve weathered this in the past and you work with stolen gens, but at some point you’ve got to really pull back and care for yourself. How do you deal with that?

Aunty Evajo:

I think my grandkids, they are what helps me with my healing. I don’t go party, I don’t go, whatever it is. I’m somebody that pretty much likes to be at home. I like my own company and just to be able to reflect. I do it because I care. And healing-wise, if we go to the beach or if we go down near water, just go to the park with the kids, go visit my son. I don’t know, I don’t do anything specifically. I do a lot of talking to Bunjil.

Charles:

Yeah, helps a lot of people.

Aunty Evajo:

And at the end of the day I do think so, and I do believe so. But also it’s just being able to have those people around you that get you with all the other things that go on in your life. And it’s about being able to offload. But I do go to Dardi as often as I can. It used to be-

Charles:

So for the audience, that’s Dardi Munwurro, which is a gathering place in Preston, yeah.

Aunty Evajo:

Yeah. And I was going regularly on every Friday. And there are sometimes things that take over that I can’t get down there, but I go to the smoking ceremony and I get rid of the hitchhikers that are sitting on my back in my head so I can go into a weekend. And I do believe that it helps and just to be able to be there for our young people that are going through their change of life with their behavioral changes and just listening to fabulous stories. And that empowers me to know that people want to make change and people want to do better for not just themselves, but their families.

Charles:

Well, talking about wanting to make change, ever since I’ve known you, you’ve always been this woman who has some sort of goal in mind. You’re seeing something that you want to bring about change. Again, without compromising yourself, and this is not a loaded question, what are some of the key changes that you would like to bring about in your remaining years with VicPol to benefit community?

Aunty Evajo:

Oh, look, I think for me the change I want is better recruiting. I would like to see more mob don that uniform.

Charles:

But what about non-mob? What do you want to see from non-mob coming in and donning that uniform?

Aunty Evajo:

I want them to be able to understand. We do Aboriginal cultural awareness training and that’s almost about to end and then it’s going to go into a new era. But we are a very multicultural state. Policing now is very multicultural, which is really fabulous to see. And a lot of women dominate in high positions. And that, I love.

Charles:

Yeah, of course.

Aunty Evajo:

I think it’s really important. But the importance of all policing to have a better understanding of our history and our cultural awareness, we talk about boundaries and how Aboriginal people lived on the outskirts of town and if they wanted to, they had to have permission.

Charles:

And into the past to go into town.

Aunty Evajo:

Yes.

Charles:

Yeah, absolutely.

Aunty Evajo:

And when we talk about that, people just shake their heads and they actually quite get upset that this actually happened in our country. And so to have that exemption form, but what you had to give up to have that exemption form, and you have a room full of multicultural people that are donning that uniform or working as unsworn members that are from different cultural backgrounds. And you had to give up your language, your family, your community, your culture so that you could be white. And that is written on that exemption form. And the only way that I can bring it back to reality for them is I go, “We all remember COVID, hey.”

Charles:

Yeah.

Aunty Evajo:

Wow, the giggles, laughs. Yeah, whatever. And then I go, “And how did it feel?”

Charles:

Exactly.

Aunty Evajo:

You were told what to do, when to do, you couldn’t go visit, you couldn’t go interstate. And they got it.

Charles:

All those people that used to curse Dan Andrews.

Aunty Evajo:

Damn straight, he was my mate. I’m a Dan fan. But at the end of the day, I think the importance of them understanding history and it wasn’t that long ago.

Charles:

Absolutely.

Aunty Evajo:

And I think this was, I don’t know, I can’t remember what that exemption date had, but I think it was the ’50s. It’s not that long ago. So the more people want to learn about Australia’s history and how we can all work together to move forward, and I think eventually our non-aboriginal police also are starting to call out racism as hard as that might be.

Charles:

That’s a hell of a positive move, isn’t it? That’s great.

Aunty Evajo:

And it is a positive move and it’s an important move because like I said, there’s a lot of color in Victoria police, even though they all wear the one uniform. And that to me is what’s really important. And I think just in closing, I’d only worked at this organisation for a very short time and I think when I lost my son, how amazing they embraced me as part of their blue family. And that in itself, I was overwhelmed. And that’s a big thing in my life, but it wasn’t just my community that came together for me, but so did they. And I think we’ve got to think about once you work for them, you become their family so your family grows. And I’m very blessed to be part of that, but I think they’re very blessed to have me too.

Charles:

Absolutely. No one’s going to argue that.

Aunty Evajo:

Because it is important and that’s how we help build relationships and that’s how I share and I share those things with my community and what they’ve done for me as well as what you’ve done for me. And it is important. We’ve got a long way to go. Don’t get me wrong, we have a hell of a long way to go to get it right. But if we can get our recruiting better and make it safe that we want to wear that uniform and we want to make a difference in our community, but also working in this space, I do think it’s important, but it’s not an easy job and it’s one community member at a time and it’s one police officer at a time that we strengthen what we have.

Charles:

Let me finish up with this, one message that you would want to send out to our community, not the police, but to our community, in relationship to bridging the gap between mob and police. What would it be?

Aunty Evajo:

I think what I’d like to say to community is that they are there to serve and protect us. And I do believe that we have some really great officers and it’s also about respect both ways.

Charles:

Benefit of the doubt. Also, one of those officers who’s confronting him might be one of the good guys.

Aunty Evajo:

And he might be or she might be. And it’s just allowing yourself to have a conversation with that person, with that officer, and because they’ve been called for a reason. And if ever you’re having difficulties, let us know because that is what we are here for.

Charles:

Aunty Evajo, thanks so much indeed for your time.

Aunty Evajo:

Very welcome. Anytime.