Charles Pakana:

Across Victoria, especially since the failed 2023 referendum, there’s been a clear growth in the number of local reconciliation groups. In fact, according to Reconciliation Victoria, that overarching body, there’s been an increase of nearly 100% from the low 20s, prior to 2023, up to around about the 40 figure. And today I’m up in Shepparton speaking with one of the co-conveners of the Shepparton Region Reconciliation Group, Dierdre Robertson, to talk about some of the challenges that such groups face, particularly in more conservative areas across Victoria. Dierdre, thanks for joining me today on the program.

Dierdre Robertson:

Thanks, Uncle Charles. It’s lovely to be here.

Charles:

Dierdre, give me a little bit of a background to the genesis of the Shepparton Region Reconciliation Group.

Dierdre:

Well, it started in the 1990s originally with people involved with the Rumbalara Football Club. There were allies who would go and help out, and there were discussions about, “How can we bring people together?” And so that was the genesis. And right from the beginning, there was a strong feeling that it needed to be a collaboration, so there’s always been an Aboriginal co-convener and a non-Aboriginal co-convener. I’m the non-Aboriginal co-convener of the group, and my other co-convener is Bobby Nicholls.

Charles:

Let’s get to 2023, and we’ll start from 2023. We’ll go backwards in time, then we’ll go forwards in time. But starting at 2023, and this is one of the reasons that I’m up here having a yarn with you today up here in Shepp, what were some of the really challenging points as you and your group were advocating for a Yes vote in that referendum?

Dierdre:

I think one of the challenges is bearing in mind that it is a very conservative area, that sometimes when you mix with people who have similar views to yourself, you’ll think that that’s a bit more like it is out in the community. And one of the things we found was that’s not actually the case. And it is a very conservative area, and there were very, very strong voices for no, but they were not very public voices for no. They were strong within the community, so much so that I was told in some communities, “Do not ask someone how they’re voting, or do not encourage them to talk about that,” because if people here, they are going to vote yes, they will be ostracized in their communities. Now, that’s a… That fear factor was a really strong thing, certainly through the referendum. I know there were people who had signs out in the country that were defaced, pulled down, and so they put them up again, they were defaced, pulled down, thrown over the fence. And that even happened in Shepparton itself.

Charles:

You were talking before we pressed the record button for this interview about an experience that you had on one of the local polling booths. We’re not going to name the particular polling booth, but you felt so intimidated and concerned that you actually, at around about midday just packed up and walked off. Tell us a bit about that, because this seems to be echoed right across the state during 2023.

Dierdre:

Yes. I’m not sure if your listeners remember. It was a terrible day. The clouds were really black and low. It was like Mother Earth was saying, “This is not so good.” And I was there on my own. I’d put up big banners and core flutes and things. There were no merchandise anywhere. The local Red Cross ladies were there early on, so I bought some cakes, but over the morning there was this gentleman who came and he walked past me and muttered… I couldn’t tell what he was saying then. Then he was down there talking to the Red Cross ladies, and he sort of looked over at me and talked to them, and they looked over at me. And I felt really a bit uncomfortable. But I had done pre-polling in Shepparton and I was used to having robust conversations, even a bit-

Charles:

Now, how far out of Shepp was this? We’re not going to mention the town, as I mentioned.

Dierdre:

Oh, it’s towards the edge, getting up closer to the Murray.

Charles:

Right.

Dierdre:

And then he sort of hung around a bit, and then when he walked past me, he was muttering again, and I felt really uncomfortable.

Charles:

Did you actually pick up what he said?

Dierdre:

Yes, it was-

Charles:

You’re looking a bit reluctant to actually say. You are allowed to swear if you’re saying, “This is a direct quote.”

Dierdre:

Oh, it was like, “Oh, fucking voter, Yes voter.” And that’s what-

Charles:

Really?

Dierdre:

Yeah. That’s my understanding of what he said. I might’ve misheard, of course, but that was my understanding. But the other thing that happened, actually, there was an older lady on a walking cane came in and voted. And by this time I wasn’t handing out any flyers. There was no point really. And I felt it was a bit, in some words, risky, in inverted commas to do that.

Charles:

Goodness.

Dierdre:

And so… Just because of a few people’s responses, “I don’t want that.” That sort of response.

Charles:

Was clear aggression, though.

Dierdre:

Yes. Many people were just, “No,” or just ignored me. I’d just say, “Good morning. Would you like one of these?” “No.”

Charles:

Just before you proceed then, you were involved in the pre-polling beforehand. Did any of the pre-polling experiences give you an indication as to just how polarizing this was in the community?

Dierdre:

Yes. And No people were very, very… Not all, but some of them were very strong and loud in their no, whereas many people walked into the pre-poll and came out and walked past us and said, “I voted Yes.” And there was one person who was going, “You just need to spell no.” And he said it to quite a few people. And one man came back out and said, “I know how to spell yes.” But going back on the actual day, this older lady on her frame walked in, cast a vote and came out. And she stopped near me because I said, “Oh, you’ll be glad to get in out of the cold.”

And she looked around and then she leaned over to me and she said in a very quiet voice, “I voted Yes.” Now, the impression I got was there was no way she was going to say that out loud. And, again, it’s that fear. So, when you have strong conservative areas, there’s that sense of this is who we are and this is how we vote. And so if you’re a little bit different to that, you can find from the political point of view, you can be a bit more ostracized.

Charles:

Let’s now look at the city of Greater Shepparton, not specific to the referendum, but just in general because we’ve had a bit of a yarn, and you mentioned that just as it was experienced right across Australia, politicians at all walks became somewhat emboldened as a result of the referendum. How did that play out from your perspective and the perspective of the reconciliation group here in Shepparton?

Dierdre:

I think there was a very definite feel of, “Yeah, we know,” and from just the general community. And I think it did embolden some people to be much more open in their, how will I describe it-

Charles:

Disdain.

Dierdre:

… disdain of anything to do with Yes, anything to do with Aboriginal communities. And I know just talking to community members, Aboriginal community members, the amount of racism really peaked, and that’s not sort of limited just to this area. In terms of our Council, our Council had been really a leader in reconciliation. They had a reconciliation plan, they had had their innovate plan. They were looking to move to the second innovate plan. They had made a decision to fund in inverted commas Australia Day activities on any day except the 26th of January.

Charles:

Yeah, sure. Now, you had Councillor James, a Yorta Yorta man on Council, who’s not there now, I believe. So, did that have a bit of an impact? Do you think that that was an important influence within Council itself?

Dierdre:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think my perception is it’s often more difficult for a non-Aboriginal person, in other words, anybody else in the community, to be a bit more racist or have more conservative views in that space to talk about that when you’re sitting there talking to an Aboriginal person.

Charles:

Oh, absolutely.

Dierdre:

And so when you have a Greg on Council, I think it did have a big impact. And he was able to talk from his experience that something none of the other Councillors had, and it did provide opportunities for many of them to learn things that they didn’t really know about before.

Charles:

So, what happened with regard to the Council’s funding for activities around the 26th of January, so Australia Day activities, but not necessarily the 26th of January? Because you mentioned previously that there was a change in attitude.

Dierdre:

There was. I think after the referendum, Council were not saying, “We will not fund Australia Day activities.” It was just on that date. And so some of the communities around became really annoyed about that decision, and made a big effort to sort of have a big presence on Australia Day ’26. And they used that forum, I know in a couple of instances, to say how ridiculous it was to have that decision. And so then Council, I think as a group, became a bit concerned about that decision that they had, and so they decided that they would review it, and so made the decision to refund activities on the 26th of January.

Charles:

So, that’s just activities on the 26th of January?

Dierdre:

Yes.

Charles:

So, Australia Day, from what I gather, had to be celebrated as far as the Council was concerned on 26th of January and no other date?

Dierdre:

Previously, they would fund, in inverted commas, Australia Day activities on any other day except the 26th. There was no funding. People could have Australia Day activities on the 26th if they chose to-

Charles:

But just without Council funding.

Dierdre:

… but they would not have Council funding.

Charles:

Got you

Dierdre:

So, that was the only thing about it. We said, “Well, maybe don’t fund anything. Don’t fund those activities. …and some community members have a very moving dawn service on the 26th. And Council had provided some funding to us, which we provided. We just provided that straight to them. And so we said, “Don’t fund anything,” so that’s not an issue, but no, they wanted to have it back so that community groups could have that funding on the day. And I think that was really emboldened by the referendum result. It was like people said, “Australia has voted no, and it’s no to everything related to Aboriginal communities funding-“

Charles:

Now, what impact did these decisions have on your events? Because you mentioned that immediately following that decision by Council and the obvious emboldenment of certain prejudices or beliefs, there was a direct negative impact on your attendance. Tell us a bit about the service and the impact.

Dierdre:

The reconciliation group run two big public events. We are supported and funded by the Council. We wouldn’t be able to run them without their support. We’re also supported by the community, and we have very strong in its community one rather than a Council event. And so we have, Sorry Day, which is on the 26th of May, and we also have the Apology Breakfast. Now, the Apology Breakfast was just after that event, after January 26th. And when Council was starting to think about reviewing it, the attendance there wasn’t too bad. It was pretty much as usual. All the schools were involved, students and community members and the general public, but Sorry Day was very different because by then Council had made the decision that they were going to fund events on the 26th of January. So, the numbers of community members, Aboriginal community members who attended that event was really much lower.

Charles:

You’re saying Aboriginal community members, what about non-Aboriginal community members?

Dierdre:

And there were many non-Aboriginal community members who attended, I think, just to say, “We are there and we think this decision is wrong and not a good decision,” but they did come. And the schools, which I was really wondering how the schools would be, whether they would still want to be involved because there are schools, all of the schools, all the secondary schools. And so there are faith schools, there are private schools, there are non-Governments, and there are Government schools, but they all responded and they all attended and they all had their students part of that event, so that was a really big positive. But I think for some of the wider community members, they were definitely going to be there and said that, “We wanted to be there.”

Charles:

So, let’s look at some of the key challenges that as a reconciliation group that you find in a somewhat conservative part of the state. We’ve talked about the referendum, we’ve talked about Council-funded events, but general day-to-day work, because I know that you and your team are out there constantly trying to support First Nations initiatives and walk hand in hand with the local First Nations communities, what are some of the key challenges that you do find?

Dierdre:

I think sometimes it’s sort of a fine line when people have views that are quite different to yours, but it’s really important to keep those communication channels open, and to gently challenge in a way that says that maybe you might like to think of a different way of looking at that situation. Sometimes you have to just say, “Well, that’s how it is at the moment.” And as we know, the path of reconciliation is not linear. It goes around in circles sometimes. I know time seems to go backwards. So, you just have to go, “Well, this is the place we’re in at the moment, but we have to keep working at it.” I think some of us found it really hard to keep up the momentum and keep the energy going when you’re faced with an environment that feels a bit more… It’s like it’s moved to more conservative ways of thinking, and in many cases, almost more racist views that are more overt, I think.

Charles:

What are some instances where that racism has been overt, and particularly noticed by you and your fellow members?

Dierdre:

Oh, certainly with the referendum, that time. I think after it, we’ve noticed things like at the events on the 26th of January, there were comments about, “Oh, welcomes to country, should we have those?” And we know that there have been different meetings where even having that someone has refused to do an acknowledgement or those sorts of things. That would never have happened prior to the referendum. I think people felt that that No vote was a very big yes for them to say what they really thought, but they felt maybe they better not.

Charles:

What about now with treaty happening? And as we’re doing this interview, it’s just a couple of weeks since it’s passed the Upper House as well, so it’s now into law. Has there been or do you foresee any backlash in community as a result of this legislation? And the smile on your face is telling me you’ve got something to say on it.

Dierdre:

Well, there’ll probably be the usual, “Oh, we’re going to lose our barbecue or our clothesline or our backyard.”

They’re the usual things that are trotted out. And I think there’ll be the usual things of, “Oh, there’s so much money spent on this. What a waste.” It’s those sorts of things. And this will be very divisive. Those will be the sort of comments.

Charles:

So, how are you and your team going to deal with that? Because you will be hit with those. Did 2023 give you some lessons, and how will those lessons be better played out in 2026?

Dierdre:

Yes, they gave us some lessons. I think one of the lessons was the importance of conversations, and the way you talk to people about these issues, finding that common ground. I think one of the other things is to make sure we are really well-informed. We learnt that with the referendum that you really do need to know stuff, so that when you’re faced with someone spouting off with things that you know are absolutely incorrect or even lies, that you can say, “Oh, okay, so where did you get that information? Because I found that information-“

Charles:

Sky News, Sky News.

Dierdre:

“… here, and this is what this says, which is different to what you said.” So, one of the things we’ve done, and we did it just yesterday, is got together and actually had the treaty, the actual treaty-

Charles:

That 30-page document.

Dierdre:

… that 33-page document that you’ve spoken about before. And we went through it and said, “Okay, what’s it telling us? What is this, …? What’s the structure of it? How’s it going to work?” And so to help scale us up so that we have some knowledge, so if we hear a whole lot of misinformation or disinformation deliberate, we can say, “Oh, no, that’s not right. I was reading the treaty, and it doesn’t say that at all.” And so it’s sort of saying, “Would you like a copy of it so you can…” To someone, “Would you like a copy of it so that you can read it yourself?”

Charles:

Great idea. Yeah.

Dierdre:

Those sorts of things. But it is important to actually know. You don’t have to know everything. And sometimes it’s fine to say, “Look, I don’t know, but that’s a really good question. And I don’t know, and I’d like to find out, so I’ll find out and I’ll get back to you,” so they know that this is important and you will find out and you do get back to them. So, one of the other things is we do need to spend time, and that’s what we’re starting to do too. We will be talking to Councillors and talking to other members in the community about the importance of the treaty, and how the generosity of such a document, and how in the document it talks about bringing everybody together, and that this country is there, and there are people who have been here for millennium, so far long back, we can’t even imagine, and there are those who’ve come later, but it is a country that people are welcome to share.

Charles:

I just want to jump back on this one. You mentioned that you’ll be speaking to Councillors. What specific challenges do you see there? Because let’s be really frank, Councillors get to their positions by quite often being bullish people and being fairly inflexible as well. Setting yourself up for a bit of a task there, Dierdre.

Dierdre:

Well, I guess sometimes people have very strong views, but sometimes when you actually distill where that’s coming from, you actually have things in common. They have a love of their community. They want to improve their community. They want to make the state better. They want to make the nation better. And so sometimes, if you have those commonalities, at least you can have a bit of a conversation. And so you might not agree, and in many cases you probably won’t, but at least you can have the conversation. And that just might… You just never know where it’ll lead. Just never know.

Charles:

Ever hopeful. I love the optimism. I think it’s wonderful, and we need it, for goodness sake. Now, before we let you go, what about the relationship and the importance of the relationship with the local Black community, and specifically the Yorta Yorta clan? What are your thoughts on that, and how important is that to the work you do?

Dierdre:

Oh, it’s critical. It’s really important. Otherwise, we’re sort of recolonizing things, aren’t we really, when you think about it.

Charles:

You’re asking me? You know the answer I’ll give.

Dierdre:

So, it’s absolutely important to have an Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal co-conveners.

Charles:

Yeah.

Dierdre:

I would never make a decision or think about doing anything without consulting with Bobby. It’s just the way we work. And if there are things that we aren’t certain about, we’ll check with him or check with other community members. It is really important because otherwise it’s not really reconciliation, is it?

Charles:

Dierdre Robertson from the Shepparton Region Reconciliation Group, thank you so much indeed for your time.

Dierdre:

Oh, thanks, Uncle Charles. It’s been a pleasure to have this chat.