Charles Pakana:

Well, following a highly successful and highly publicized 500K plus walk last year to promote truth-telling here in Victoria. Gunditjmara man, Travis Lovett, has once again taken up the mark to this time make it a bit longer and make it a bit more national. Travis announced a while ago that he was going to embark upon a much longer 800K plus walk from Nam to the Parliament House in Canberra to promote national truth-telling. Travis joins us today to talk about this incredible new initiative. Travis, thanks so much indeed for joining us on the program.

Travis Lovett:

Yeah, Natanka, thanks for the opportunity to come and have a yarn. Really important that we come together and share yarns and so forth. Before we start, I’d always like to acknowledge.

Charles:

Please.

Travis:

[Acknowledgement in language]. I just acknowledged country, pay my respects to my ancestors, a proud Gunditjmara man, but also acknowledge that we’re on the lands of the Wiradjuri, Wadawurrung people. And we as First Peoples, we’re loud in our voice for our rights to be recognized and upheld, but we also walk softly on country, our own country, but also other people’s country as well. And I just wanted to send a message to our old people to let them know that their fight, their struggle, and their resistance to keep culture alive and be able to hand that on to our people as well. It’s really important that we share language where we can. And again, for them to hear the echoing through the landscape as well is really important.

Charles:

Beautiful. And thanks so much indeed for that, Travis. Really appreciate it. Travis, let’s talk about the sparking of the idea from this, because I remember probably a couple of weeks after you finished up the walk last year, you were still recovering somewhat because it was a fairly hard task. You gave me a call and said, “I’ve got an idea for something. I can’t talk about it right now, but I assume this was it.”

Travis:

This was it.

Charles:

This was it.

Travis:

Yeah.

Charles:

So, what sparked the desire to go from the statewide call for truth via the walk to a national attempt at this?

Travis:

Yeah. Well, with the last walk, I mean, I think we were young a few times throughout that journey about that being sparked from the couch from my lounge room.

Charles:

It was.

Travis:

But something dawned on me when I got to the end of the walk about and overwhelmed really with the support that we received, not only from our people, but actually more than 22,000 people walked in Victoria on the Walk for Truth. And I just had that moment where it was really important that they go, “Well, how do we take this in a much more, I guess, make this national?” The importance of we’ve been able to do truth-telling in Victoria quite successfully, and it’s important that we have the ability to share our truths and our lived experiences. And I think it’s time across the country also that we have a national truth-telling process be established by the prime minister of this country.

Charles:

Talking about the prime minister, sorry to butt in, but obviously there’s a lot of discontent within the broader Australian community, and of course the First Nations community. When he stood in front of the country and said that he supported all three calls from the Uluru Statement from the heart, after the referendum, the failed referendum, it’s been obviously very silent. And I know there has been national calls for truth-telling. How much of this is driven by the silence from the government on these other key points?

Travis:

Well, that’s another one of the main points really about wanting to take the Walk for Truth, National, because our people are not on the agenda, and then there has been quite a lot of silence about what’s happening. Yes, there’s been some investment in the economic prosperity side of First Peoples, but the call still remains for truth-telling to bring our nation together. Our nation even more right now needs to come together and heal. And that needs to be led, in my view, by First Peoples. We are the first people.

So, there’s been a lot of injustice towards our people, and that’s not to take away from other parts of injustices happening in our society as well, but we have always called for truth-telling to be embedded, whether it be across society, but also in the curriculum system and so forth in schools to be taught as well. Our voice has been really strong and loud about that, but the call for national truth has been silent.

And I think that’s the catalyst for also for me wanting to walk, to bring our nation together, to talk about the lived experiences of our people, not just in Victoria, right across this country to talk about the impacts of colonization, but also the depths of trauma, but the strength and the resistance of our people, but also the contributions and the leadership that our people contribute to everyday Australia is not recognized and that’s a really important point. The walk is a catalyst for bringing people together to share those lived experiences. We do stop, but sites of cultural significance to our people.

Charles:

Mm-hmm. Just as you did on the statewide walk. Yep.

Travis:

Exactly right. And we do stop at places that talk about the depths of trauma that our people have been through. But again, we also share culture. We pass message sticks on and so forth as well. And that’s really important point. It’s the opportunity because we want everyone to be proud to have the oldest continuous living culture in the world as ours. Mob are already proud about that, but we want all Australians to be proud about that.

Charles:

As how they should be.

Travis:

Yeah.

Charles:

Travis, what do you actually want though? It’s all well and good to say, well, at the end of the day, we want truth-telling to be embedded within the Australian society. We want all Australians to recognize that this is their culture. It’s a shared culture as well, but what are you actually going to be calling for? Is it going to be a national truth-telling commission just as we saw with Europe, in which case we need to explore that a bit because if the Europe Truth Commission took four years and wasn’t even able to finish what it wanted to achieve, if you do want a national commission, what do you expect from that?

Travis:

Well, I think it’s really important that we call for a national truth-telling process. I’ve called it a process as well, because again, it creates an opportunity to bring the government and our people back to the table to talk about what should that process look like as well. It creates the flexibility for us to be able to have that discussion as First Peoples as well, similarly like we did in Victoria about, well, what does the mechanism look like? And I think that that’s really important for us as First Peoples to be able to have that.

But again, truth-telling has been advocated for and we are not seeing any solid commitments from the government and the walk will also be a catalyst for that to happen. We’ve also got, this time, an open letter to the prime minister of Australia and I’m asking everyday Australians, mob, allies, supporters, family, friends, community to sign that letter and support of national truth-telling. That’s another thing that we’re doing differently this time as well to show that there is, like you’re saying, and we know this already, that there’s widespread support, not just from our mob, but right across Australia to come together and heal the nation, but it needs to be based on truth, on justice, underpinned by healing and hope.

Charles:

So, it’s not specifically a commission that you’ve got in mind to ask for. It’s just a process. Now how that process ends up looking and actually starts being carried out, that seems to be fairly open at this state. Is that a fair call?

Travis:

That is a fair call, and that’s on purpose.

Charles:

Right.

Travis:

That is absolutely on purpose. And many people right across our country and our nation will be able to share their views along the way of that route as well by coming along and participating. And if people can’t walk as we’re opening the invitation to walk alongside us, then share the content on social media, but also engage. Sign the open letter to the prime minister and let the prime minister know that there is massive support of this and something needs to be done.

Charles:

So, where can people find that letter and actually sign it?

Travis:

Yep. So, if they go for on the website, www.walkfortruth.com and the open letter to the prime minister is on there. Also, some videos about the Walk for Truth as well. And I think it’s quite an engaging website and yeah, really encourage people to go check it out. And again, I understand that not everyone can walk, which is why we’ve created the flexibility to also sign the open letter and engage in social sharing information, but also have a conversation with your friends, your family and colleagues. It’s so important that we actually are having conversations.

And that’s one of the beauties about walking with people. We are actively out on country like First Peoples have done for 60 plus thousand years, we’re out there walking on country. I can now actually say that I’ve walked my country and I know that many other TOs are excited about the opportunity that the National Walk for Truth is a catalyst for also enabling them to be able to do that as well.

Charles:

Well, let’s talk about the other TOs because I remember before the Victorian Walk for Truth, you were in extensive consultation with various TO groups across whose country the walk would take you. Now there were also, I know some levels of disappointment from some TO groups because you could not go across the entire state and encompass them all. So, how’s the process working out this time? And given also that you’re not just looking at Victorian TO groups, but well, right up, so I would assume Wiradjuri as well, you and country may be. So, how are you managing that process?

Travis:

Yeah. So, I guess similar, reaching out, having conversations, having meetings, many of them obviously have to be online, but certainly engaging, making sure that the mob have the flexibility to be able to choose which locations and sites that we’re wanting to try to highlight and draw attention to. And how people know these truths. It’s about how do we find an opportunity and the walk is a catalyst to be able to share those lived experiences with people as well. So, regular meetings with them, again, for them to be able on the day.

One of the key things about this walk is whilst I do talk a lot and probably seem to be talking a lot, I think it’s really important to highlight that at these locations, it’s the TOs who speak for country. I’m the message stick. I’m the one who’s, I guess, walking, but ultimately it’s the TOs who share their lived experiences in each locations as well. We work with elders, we work with respected people, we work with organizations as well for them to demonstrate what that looks like. And I think that’s a really important point and that’s cultural protocols. People speak for country, people speak for their rights, people speak for their lived experience.

And if I can play a role like we’re able to do on the Walk for Truth to highlight those lived experiences and walking alongside our people and non-Aboriginal people, because that’s what we’ve always said. And we want to walk beside, we want to work alongside, but walk alongside non-Aboriginal people to share that lived experience, but also for people to understand what better way than do it than actually walking, maybe not 850 kilometers for everybody, but yeah.

Charles:

That does bring up an interesting point because I’m aware that during the Victorian Walk for Truth, a lot of these stages were open to community joining with you. Now I remember on the initial day of the walk from Portland just along for a while that it was slow-going, very, very slow-going. I remember just that first gap was only, what, about a kilometer from Portland to the first stop, to the lookout area.

You have mentioned that you’re going to be involving people again and given the opportunity, but what are your expectations now? What are your plans with regard to maybe shortening the number or the length of walk with those people, so you can get back to the business of striking out as you do, walking beside you, being a tall fellow, taking fast strides is not an easy thing to do, but what are your plans there?

Travis:

Yeah. So, I think, I mean, like with anything in life, you have the ability to reflect on what worked really well and also what are the, I guess the enhancements that you need to make. And one of those will be shortening the public roots for us to be able to have even, I guess, deeper dialogue, but also we have a broad audience and people come and join us in society. We had a 94-year-old walk with us right through to our four-legged friends, babies being pushed in the pram and so forth as well. So, I think being more targeted this time and having the ability to have, I guess, shorter stretches for people to be able to, because people do.

I can come and walk 20Ks, but 20Ks is not an easy task for people, particularly if they’re not used to walking longer distances as well. So, we’ve been able to, I guess, refine it on this time as well. And also, I need to reiterate as well, we’ve gone through council approvals, we’ll have traffic management supporting us as well. All this is done through a legitimate process and making sure that everybody is safe. That is our number one thing alongside TOs having the voice to be able to share their country is to make sure that this walk is not only safe for myself, but safe for all the participants and all the mob who want to come and walk with us on the journey.

Charles:

Talking about involving other people, what was your reaction last week when the theme for NADOC week was announced all in? It just seemed to be custom-made. Come on, did you really have a bit of an influence on that one at all?

Travis:

No, no I didn’t…

Charles:

Because that was just so serendipitous.

Travis:

Oh no, totally, totally. And actually, when I saw the announcement on socials actually, and I just reflected for a couple of seconds and then I walked outside and I just looked up to the sky and I was just like, “Wow, this is amazing, all in.” And I think you couldn’t find an even more complimentary, I guess, theme for reconciliation week. And one of the beauties about the walk and the dates and stuff, we’ll actually be arriving in Canberra at the start of reconciliation for us to be able to kick off. And this is intentional as well, because again, we’re here to try to elevate our lived experiences here, and this is not about blaming everyday Australians.

So, I’ve said this before, and I have to really continue to reiterate this point is we never blame everyday Australians or ask them to say sorry to us, but we’re asking for institutional accountability for the institutional harm that institutions have caused and continually cause our people. Many people go, “Oh, that happened in the past.” It is actually happening today, which is why we are walking to not lay blame, but to bring our nation together. Our nation across what is now known as Australia needs to heal. And again, that has to be led by First Peoples. We need to be able to share our truths.

Now, our country has the ability to hold many truths at once, and this is a really important point, many truths at once we can hold.

Charles:

Just expand on that a bit for us.

Travis:

Well, I mean, there’s a lot going on in the world. There’s a lot going on in Australia right now. There’s a lot of injustices right across community and society. And what I’m saying here is that First Peoples have experienced an ongoing systemic injustice caused by colonization for over 200 years. And what I’m saying is with that is this is also an opportunity to bring our nation together to address the ongoing issues that our people have faced because of colonization, but also highlight where we have contributed continually to society and the economic fabric whilst we’ve been excluded from that economic fabric of this country, we are still contributing in many different ways.

So, that’s what I mean about holding truths. I’m not here to take away other injustices happening that have happened to us. What I’m saying is, First Peoples, we need to address the ongoing issues that our people face on a continual basis. Then alongside that, we work along broadly about social cohesion and bringing ourselves and our collective nation together as well. And that’s what the walk does. It brings people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all ages.

Charles:

We saw that. We saw that.

Travis:

It’s lived experience. And this is what we’re trying. We’re just now taking this at a national level to be able to bring everyone together.

Charles:

So, how do you prepare? Let’s end on a bit of a personal note. How do you prepare for this? I know that in preparation for the Victorian walk, you had a treadmill at work at the Yoorrook Justice Commissioner and you’d stand there working and you’d just be doing kilometer after kilometer and then-

Travis:

Yes, it’s true.

Charles:

… you took it back onto the road and went through, goodness knows how many pairs of sneakers. So, what’s the preparation this time?

Travis:

Yeah, well, same preparation. I’m doing some big days around 37 kilometers while just to stretch the body. I guess I’ll be back into it in a sense as well. I didn’t want to overdo it. I mean, I’ve got 13 weeks actually till today that we actually are leaving and to be able to walk to Canberra there. But yeah, but just spending the time, the hours putting in the work. I mean, this is incredibly important to me and this is incredibly important to our people and also to our nation. And I want to make sure like last time that I’m fit enough, not just fit enough that I’m overly fit that I could do this.

And like I said last time, it’s the mental challenge really is because we are. We’re stopping at sites of deep trauma to our people and we need to do that.

Charles:

So, how do you prepare yourself for that emotional drain? Because I know you take it on so often. I saw that during the Victorian walk. You’re going to be walking across other country this time with some outstandingly horrible historical instances having happened there. How do you prepare yourself for that? Now I know that Renata, your amazing wife has just been an incredible support for you, but there’s got to be something internal in preparation for this.

Travis:

Yeah. Well, I mean, not that cliche of smoking ceremonies and stuff, but I’ve been doing, spending a bit of time down because I live on [inaudible 00:18:34], but down near Merri Creek there as well-

Charles:

Beautiful.

Travis:

… just connecting with country and thinking about this. But also one of the things that was really important and an opportunity was when I was walking on country and I heard a lot of firsthand lived experience of truths that people share with me through the Yoorrook Justice Commission. And I was able to, I guess, help myself process by walking on country was healing. And I think this is another thing that I’m really looking forward to in getting back out as well, is another catalyst is walking and talking.

And when you see people who are non-Aboriginal people come and walk with us and they’re learning something on a day-to-day basis or in the moment going, “I’ve lived in this area for 60 years and I didn’t know this.” That helps.

Charles:

Just like the premier when she said that-

Travis:

Just like the premier.

Charles:

… at the Yoorrook hearings, of course.

Travis:

Exactly right. I remember walking with this 87-year-old fellow, actually he lived in Port Ferry all his life and he’d catch up with non-Aboriginal friend and that they’d been getting together, particularly of the last 30 years talking about like just life, politics, rah. Anyway, they’d never once spoken about Aboriginal affairs and this person came two days later and actually I had another yarn with them again, but never spoken about Aboriginal affairs. Two days later, came back and they’d had caught up for coffee as they’d do every single week in the little town.

Charles:

Narrative change.

Travis:

Narrative change. And they actually had their first ever conversation about First Peoples. These people have been living in those regions for so long. So, it’s a conversation starter. And this is what I mean about talking to your friends, your family, your colleagues. The dinnertime conversations are incredibly important. And this is the opportunity that presents Australia’s. We’re dealing with facts here. This is not just something that we’ve cooked up on the side here, people’s lived experience. This is why I don’t use when we talk about truth as in a story. It’s a lived experience.

And that’s what we do on this walk and that’s what we did with the Yoorrook Justice Commission. It was people’s truths. It was people’s lived experience.

Charles:

Yeah, for sure.

Travis:

And we’re able to turn those lived experiences into recommendations for change and transformation, which is also what we’ll be able to do on this walk. We’ll be able to turn those lived experiences into further advocacy and further highlighting the injustice in different parts of our country as our people continue to do. We’re actually walking alongside in a physical sense with non-Aboriginal people.

Charles:

So, let’s go to the 27th of May and we’ll finish it up there. What’s the one thing, one thing, Travis, that you would like the prime minister and all Australians to feel, not to do, but to feel when you’re standing there on the steps of Parliament House in Canberra, hopefully handing over a message stick to the prime minister.

Travis:

I want them to feel connected to First Peoples is really important, connected to our lived experience and also want to see change in our country where we bring First Peoples and non-First Peoples together based on the truth, based on evidence and based on the facts and how we come together and heal. Healing is incredibly important part of our culture and our ceremony and our business, but it’s also, that’s what I want. I want us to be able to heal as a nation, but it needs to be based on the truth. So, we want people to feel connected to that lived experience. Again, not about blame, but about understanding the true lived experiences of our people.

So, feel connected to that and also feel a bit outraged that we actually, over 230 years later, we are still having very similar conversations that our people have had. So, let’s commit to national truth-telling process and how we move forward and bring our nation together.

Charles:

And I’ve been speaking with Travis Lovett, who’s embarking very soon on a national Walk for Truth. And here on Victorian Aboriginal News, we’ll be bringing you a number of other interviews with Travis and associate with organizations and peoples as that undergoes all the preparation. Travis, best of luck. We’ll be chatting again soon and thanks for coming on the program today.

Travis:

Deli, thanks very much to Deli, great to be here and have the opportunity to share what we’re up to and the importance of coming together, the spirit of healing our nation as well. So, my language, we’d say Wuduk, which means for now, Wuduk.

Charles:

Cheers, brother.