Charles Pakana:

For over 30 years, the Koori Mail Newspaper has maintained an unwavering focus on delivering news and insights into and about First Nations communities right across Australia and the Torres Strait Islands. Joining me today is the editor of that paper, a man who first joined as a cadet way back in 1992, Yidinji man, Todd Condie. Todd, thanks for speaking with me today, brother.

Todd Condie:

Always a pleasure, Charles.

Charles:

Todd, the Koori Mail is 100% Aboriginal-owned and self-funded, which is admittedly very rare in today’s media landscape. How does that total independence change the way you approach truth telling compared to mainstream outlets that may have, well, the influence of a corporate or government tie?

Todd:

Our independence is very important to the organization. That independence is underpinned by our structure and our longevity. We’ve been in operations since 1991, which is 35 years this year. We are owned by five Bunjalung community organizations, which means our profits are reinvested in the paper or they go as dividends for our own organizations. That makes us a little bit different to other media outlets in the sector in that we are privately owned and aren’t beholden, as you said, to shareholders or government funding. And we are Aboriginal-owned and managed. That’s our strength.

Charles:

Does it give you freedom, editorial freedom, rather than having to kowtow to the requirements of a government or a corporate funder?

Todd:

If you work for mainstream media, indigenous stories can be pigeonholed or they only report on things that are very negative or scandalous. Our focus is, whatever happens in the Aboriginal community, we report on, whatever that may be. It’s a platform for authentic self-representation, so it’s a platform for First Nations mob to tell their own stories. There’s a lot of negative reporting in mainstream media.

Charles:

Yeah, very much.

Todd:

So we wanted to be a counterbalance to that and just show that, while there’s a lot of negative things and challenges faced by our people, there’s a lot of people doing really great things in their communities and that’s what we want to reflect.

Charles:

We are in an era where, let’s be frank about it, trust in media is declining. How do you see the Koori Mail has managed to maintain its status as, and we’ll use quote marks here, “the voice of Indigenous Australia” for over three decades? And I know you’ve mentioned some of that previously, that you’ve got that editorial independence, that good, bad, indifferent, that this is a place to promote and publish these stories, but what are some of the other factors that come into play when it is maintaining that lead in being the voice of Indigenous Australia and the media?

Todd:

I think just by being in operation for three decades, I think we’ve become a trusted source of information for First Nations people. Every fortnight, we provide a snapshot of what’s going on in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities across the nation. We also have an unofficial measure, if you will. If we’re reporting in a culturally inappropriate way, our audience would soon let us know. So that’s a safety net, that we have a cultural safety net.

Charles:

So the community holds you to task when you get things wrong.

Todd:

Absolutely, absolutely. And we’re not averse to making corrections when we need to, but I think it’s the way we’re structured. Just give you an example, instead of a CEO, we have a cultural lead. That’s our equivalent to a CEO. As I said, we have an Aboriginal board that provides the direction of the paper on the Aboriginal editor. Probably half our correspondents are indigenous. So for all those reasons, we’re just structured to focus just on what’s happening to Blackfellows in this country.

Charles:

Just talking about your cultural lead, I believe that’s Auntie Rhoda, isn’t it?

Todd:

Yeah, Rhoda Roberts. She’s been our cultural lead for the past year, have been on board for the year since I’ve come back. She’s been fantastic, given her clout in various industries and pioneer at SBS, but yeah, she has come down with some health conditions, which hasn’t stopped her working, I might add. She’s one of the most workaholic people I’ve ever known in my life.

Charles:

She’s pretty incredible. What value or what influence does she have in supporting the editorial direction and content of the paper?

Todd:

Just the backbone, someone we can come to with awkward questions. I’d have to say our newsroom is a pretty robust place at times. So we have very open discussions about all sorts of things and stories come in. And because she knows virtually just about every Blackfellow in Australia, it’s just a really good backstop for the editorial team to have someone of her caliber to ask questions about anything.

Charles:

Let’s just talk about some of those challenges in a robust newsroom, because I can imagine the sort of conversations that might go on at times, but it does obviously bring up the question of challenges, editorial challenges. I can only assume that you would be inundated with requests from the community right across Australia and the Torres Strait Islands, “Here’s a great story. You’ve got to cover that.” You’ve got limited pages. You’re only coming out every fortnight. How do you go about determining, “These are the stories that are going to afford us this best balance in the next edition”?

Todd:

Really good question. Well, it’s about maintaining high standards that we try to uphold. We’re not restricted by any topic, really. The only things I shy away from, and we do get a few of them, is intercommunity feuds. We don’t try and get involved in those types of things just because we don’t have the resources, and as you said, we only come out every fortnight. And also, I don’t think it’s our place to be the adjudicator, be the mediator in these types of-

Charles:

Situations, shall we say?

Todd:

Yeah. Community infighting, that sort of thing.

Charles:

And I’ll just point out that that happens regardless of a community, it happens in every single community, whether it’s political, social, racial, whatever. It’s just an ongoing thing. So you maintain that you don’t cover that sort of stuff, but are you looking for key points to balance? For example, there’s so much going on. Of course, you’ve got one of the key figures from Koori Mail’s history, Naomi Moran, who’s now a commissioner for treaty in New South Wales and doing an amazing work. There’s so much move afoot on treaty in Victoria, truth telling right across the country, other treaty initiatives. Just how do you go about dealing with all this and saying, “Okay, we can’t focus on one thing or one state or territory.” How do you achieve that balance because it must be a flame and nightmare?

Todd:

Well, because we’re national, we always got to focus on how much focus we’re giving a particular region or state, so we can’t have all stories from Victoria for a particular edition.

Charles:

We’d like that, by the way. I just want to throw in for Victoria. We would like that, brother.

Todd:

So that’s always a focus of ours, is trying to spread the stories across the country. And with a particular focus to remote communities, those poor followers don’t get much coverage anywhere. And when it is, it’s usually a very negative deficit-based coverage for their community. So we highlight the challenges faced by our mob, but also the ongoing positive stories happening every day across the country and that’s based on resilience, ongoing struggles, those types of things. But just internally, our protocols, internally, we ensure that there’s captions for every image we publish. Too often images of First Nations people in the mainstream aren’t named. We’re just clusters.

Charles:

Second-rate citizens, brother, not worthy of a mention.

Todd:

Well, just a noble savage-type situation. And we have a team of correspondents, as I said before, to access those particular stories, which are in really, really remote places, I’d have to say. So it can take sometimes days just to get to the community that’s having the event or those types of things. And also, we try and reflect that our communities and Aboriginal people and Islander people in general aren’t homogenous. We each have our own unique situation depending on our location, language, upbringing, all those types of things. And the Koori Mail tries to reflect all those different voices.

Charles:

It must be difficult at times though because I know you look for the positive stories and for the news stories in general, but let’s look at mainstream media for a second. And I hate to keep drawing this comparison, but it is important because Koori Mail is a standout in media. You look at mainstream media, it often filters First Nation stories through a lens of deficit or conflict, and you’ve already addressed that, but as an editor, let’s dive a bit deeper into some of those cultural protocols or editorial standards that you use to ensure your reporting empowers the community rather than just highlighting its struggles. Because some of the struggles, they are newsworthy, but how do you go about getting that balance between the struggles and therefore pandering to the deficit model, which seems to be the flavor for mainstream media and the positive stories?

Todd:

Well, we put Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people front and center, so they’re not tacked at the end of a story. We push them up. We make sure their voices are heard. A lot of the times, we’re dealing with people with low literacy, so we might work with a media organization out there who have close relationships with mob on the ground. And like I said, after 30 years and just being out there, our name being out there, people come to us a lot of the time. I don’t really have to go sourcing stories. A lot of my job is filtering the ones that we can’t use.

Charles:

Oh, that’s an editor’s dream, Todd.

Todd:

It is. It is.

Charles:

So let’s just look at some of the key topics happening across Australia right now and we mentioned some of those and you look at treaty and self-determination. These discussions and movements are at a critical point. So what role do you see that Koori Mail has in educating the wider Australian public, not just the Black community, but the wider Australian public on these complex issues while ensuring the Black perspective isn’t lost in all that political noise?

Todd:

It’s a balancing act for sure, Charles. I think there’s so many things involving Indigenous people’s groups. It can be sometimes a little bit confusing for people to follow it because all these things are evolving. So we’re a place for, “Okay, what’s the latest on treaty? What’s the latest on deaths and custody? What’s the latest on the latest health data? What’s the latest racist incident that’s affected our people?” and speak to those people directly involved. Whereas a lot of the mainstream reporting will be just stats, numbers and maybe a line from a government minister or government health minister and that’ll be about it. We’ll try and delve a little bit.

Charles:

So as you said before, promote those First Nations voices, get them first and foremost.

Todd:

Absolutely. Because many indigenous peoples feel invisible in Australian society and the indigenous media sector, including Koori Mail, provides a platform for them.

Charles:

How do you look after the emotional welfare of your journalists and your team because you are dealing constantly, as you mentioned, with the deficit models, with all the negativity that’s out there and in the media? I don’t think a lot of people fully understand this, but there is a barrage of all this negativity because you’ve got to filter through it, you’ve got to address it. Yes, you’re looking at the positives, but it does get wearing. Let’s be frank about it, Todd. How do you care for yourself and how do you care for your team?

Todd:

We’re very big on work-life balance. We realize that all the work that the guys do here and elsewhere around the country can be very emotional and very emotionally draining. So I’m on the phone to correspondents regularly just to talk them through things. Also, internally, we debrief constantly. So if someone goes away on a work trip, when they come back, we have a debrief. If something comes through on the email, we have a debrief. If something like Bush Legends, the AI-generated story comes about-

Charles:

Shameful, mate. Shameful.

Todd:

… we will have a very open and frank discussion about all those things. We also encourage our people to find the joy in their life and make sure that work doesn’t take over everything because … And I’m guilty of this as I take stories home with me at nighttime.

Charles:

I can imagine.

Todd:

And sometimes it can be hard to decompress after a heavy day, but yeah, I’ve got a lot of … Well, all of us have outside interests, hobbies and family.

Charles:

So you make sure that balance is achieved. You’re constantly keeping on top of that, I assume.

Todd:

Oh, absolutely, or else, you wouldn’t be able to do the job and you’d get burnt out pretty quick. And I’d like to say, a lot of people that work for us have come from media backgrounds themselves. So they have been privy to pretty heavy stories at times, but again, we have to monitor that constantly.

Charles:

So it’s interesting, you mentioned that a lot of your journalists, and I assume your photographers come from already media backgrounds, but there’s always that need to look for, so identify and mentor the next generation of Aboriginal journalists, photographers, and indeed, editors, and particularly those in regional areas, it must be an ongoing challenge. Let me add one other thing to it. I am aware that for many smaller First Nations media outlets, once you start to train up someone who’s skilled in that area, who’s got the contacts and who’s got the knowledge, the mainstream media snaffles them up like crazy.

I know that NITV, for example, is always facing that challenge. So how do you face that challenge and how difficult is it to continually monitor and build up this next generation of journos, photographers, and editors?

Todd:

It is an ongoing challenge. I’d have to say the majority of young indigenous people in the media are predominantly working in radio and television, which is understandable. It’s a very direct medium and our mob are really good on the yarn, having a yarn and being in front of the camera. So I totally see how it’s attractive for young people, but it is a challenge attracting young people to the print sector, I’d have to say. But in saying that, I’d have to say that the skills that you gain from working in the print sector provides a working knowledge of how to write, take an image, design a page and all those writing skills can be transferred to radio and TV when writing scripts, et cetera.

Charles:

Oh, without a shadow of a doubt. And I’m an ex-print man myself, and if I hadn’t had that, I don’t think I’d be anywhere near as prepared as I am for the work now. But is it an ongoing task for you in a way to keep your eye out for young journalists?

Todd:

Oh, constantly. We’re constantly looking out for new people to enter the organization, particularly young ones. But like I said, it’s hard finding someone who’s passionate about writing because it is, in many respects, a solo pursuit. You’re in your head a lot, but like I said, those skills are transferable if you go into other mediums. I’d just like to add there, just the Koori Mail has provided a stepping stone for many indigenous people in the media now. Former editor, Kirstie Parker, is now running her own consulting business in South Australia and is head of First Nations at South Australian Film Corporation.

Solua Middleton was a former journalist here. She’s now with the ABC. She’s brought out a deep, deep time project, which people may have seen. Keira Jenkins-

Charles:

My favorite, by the way, I’ve got to say, love Keira and interviewed her back probably about seven or eight years ago when I ran a different program. She’s an amazing young woman, isn’t she?

Todd:

Yes. And she was a journalist here and now she works for AAP. And our former sports writer, Darren Moncrieff, he’s just published his first book. So a lot of people have got their start here or they’ve come here mid-career and then gone on to bigger and better things. So that’s always an option.

Charles:

Well, talking about bigger and better things, the Koori Mail is fairly regularly cited globally as a model for indigenous media, and quite rightly, you’d think with that, what, 35-year legacy, as you mentioned before. Do you see the paper’s mission expanding to include more collaboration with First Nations media in places like New Zealand, Canada or the US, and also of course, within Australia itself?

Todd:

Yeah, this year there are plans to reach out to First Nations media organizations within Australia and overseas. So within Australia, we’re exploring opportunities with Garden Media in WA, the Torres News in Northern Australia, and at the moment, provide regular updates to indigenous radio networks such as Koori Radio in Sydney. Probably look to do that with 3KND at some point.

Charles:

Always open for a yarn on that one, brother.

Todd:

And I think probably we should … We’re a part of First Nations Media Australia and that’s what I’ll be taking to the next meeting, is try and access each other’s story production so that we’re sharing stories to maximize coverage across the country. Internationally, there’s Indigenous Australians always participating in global forums, which we want to tap into or tap more into. And whenever you get a chance to talk with First Nations people from overseas, you realize how similar their challenges are, the resilience that they exhibit. So it’s always empowering, but just on a global scale. So that would be Maori in New Zealand. I’ve got some contacts from some work I did with the United Nations with the Native Canadians and the Native Americans.

Charles:

So it’s ongoing, obviously.

Todd:

Ongoing and we share very similar stories, and if we can start partnering up, I think it’ll be very powerful.

Charles:

We’ll leave it with this last question that I’d like to ask everybody in Black media, Todd, and that is, sum up for me fairly succinctly what you see Black media’s role in Australia being in the broader landscape.

Todd:

I think it’s providing authentic self-representation because that doesn’t exist at the moment in the mainstream. You won’t see Black faces or Black voices on mainstream news, mainstream television. So to see ourselves, to hear our voices is very, very important because it adds to the public discourse. It also gets us out of the fog of history. I think there’s a lot of guilt by non-indigenous people in this country and they are afraid of facing the historical legacies from colonization and invasion.

Charles:

Oh, of course. Hence, the challenge in getting truth telling commissions up across the rest of Australia.

Todd:

That’s correct. And I think the indigenous media sector in all its forms adds to the reconciliation movement. I worked developing reconciliation action plans for 13 years, was devastated by the no vote in the referendum, which basically made me leave Melbourne. So yeah, the more that non-Indigenous Australia knows about its Black history, the better and that will help with policies going forward.

Charles:

Todd, I want to thank you so much indeed for your time today. Wishing you the best in Koori Mail and always happy to have a yarn how we can collaborate. Thanks again and respect to you and your entire team there at the Koori Mail.

Todd:

Thanks, Charles.