Charles Pakana:

The First Nations music scene in Australia is often regarded as a source of protest music, with leading lights such as the late Uncle Archie Roach, and of course Ruby Hunter. Of course, bring into that mix the talents of people such as Uncle Kutcha Edwards, Blackfire, Yothu Yindi, Uncle Jimmy Little, Dr G Yunupingu, and Kev Carmody. In the background though, particularly here in Victoria, is an organization that for the past 30 years has been promoting and advocating for First Nations music and artists to be recognized and embraced by all Australians. And joining me today on the program to talk about this is the general manager of Songlines, Gunditjmara man, Brad Brown. Brad, thanks for coming onto the program today.

Brad Brown:

You’re most welcome. Pleasure to be here.

Charles:

Brad, let’s just understand a bit about your history in music. You’ve been around and about for 30 plus years as a muso and advocate for music. For you personally, and in a nutshell, where did it all start and what drives you today?

Brad:

I grew up like many Aboriginal families around music, that Sunday country music scene at home. And having five older brothers and grew up around the 70s and 80s of their music. They used to come home, they’d buy the old single records and we’d be excited and we’d play a bit of Skyhooks, bit of AC/DC, the Ted Mulry Gang, all that stuff. 

Charles:

All very 70s oriented.

Brad:

Very 70s. When I sit back and think about it, including my parents, they all had different genres and different interests, so I got exposed to all this. And when it come to about 1983, when I was about 16, I went to Koori Kollij Community Health Program. There was bands there, there was a band called Hard Times, and they’d leave their setup and I’ll get behind the drums. And I went, “Well, okay, I can get through and drum okay by watching.” And then we formed a band called Dr. Koori. From there, just snowballed into band after band after band until I was playing bass for Blackfire.

Charles:

Let’s just build on that 30 plus years of music as a musician and also as an advocate for music. From the days of Blackfire, the early days of Blackfire, because of course the band is still going, having just recently released its new album, Solar Eclipse. From those days to your work today with Cool Mist, how do you see the landscape for Victorian Aboriginal musicians, singers, songwriters has changed in terms of institutional support versus the grassroots struggle of the ’80s and the ’90s?

Brad:

When Blackfire was literally on fire back in the ’90s, we did have big record deals like Sony, et cetera. And we spoke about it. There was five of us, original members. It was Kutcha, of course, myself, Selwyn Burns, Grant Hansen and Kelly McGinnis. And there was people around us, we had a team as well. And we didn’t feel right about the contracts and all that and what was expected and how we would change as a band to fit into their idealism around Black music. So we refused, and we kept on staying independent as we are today, Blackfire, but we’re with an independent label called Golden Robot.

Charles:

What were some of the key issues that were confronting you in the band at that stage that made you recognize this sort of relationship is not right for a Black rock music band?

Brad:

We were becoming a commodity. It was more based around the dollar. We had families as well. And of course, it’s difficult for Aboriginal people to be away from mob for a long time. The commitment and the expectations, if they weren’t met, it cost you as a band. To achieve that was a 50/50, and it was a risk. And a lot of people do take that risk, which is wonderful. But at that time we felt, no, it wasn’t right for us. And that’s pretty similar to today. Not much has changed around that, because we felt we were categorized to Black music instead of just generalized within the music industry.

We were pigeonholed still, and we still are in a lot of ways now. And not much has changed around that area. And there’s very dominant players within the music industry who are still dictating or have their own impression and have the influence around how Black music or Aboriginal music, First Nations music from top end to way out west, to Tassie, how that is constructed and presented around and can take away from the core principles and the influence of what we’re trying to express through our music, which is called Songlines. That’s why we’re called Songlines.

Charles:

Was this actually then the genesis of Songlines?

Brad:

Maybe not. Well, Songlines is interpreted in many ways, but a lot of us see it as Songlines as our traditional music, regardless if it’s contemporary to now, to a thousand years ago is when the songs travel through our generations.

Charles:

But the organization itself.

Brad:

Well, the organization itself, there was a need for someone to advocate and support mob musicians around Victoria. Because there is a lot of talent in Victoria.

Charles:

Absolutely.

Brad:

There’s bands everywhere in Victoria. And the backyard bands are sitting around the backyard or in the kitchen, or at home in the lounge room, or they’re doing little community gigs from their acoustics set up to their full band, or they’re singing through laptop backing tracks. The talent is amazing. And it’s a wonderful space to work in, particularly myself because I’m a musician. But first, my favorite genre of music is Aboriginal music. I grew up around it. And I did 3CR way back in the late 80s and my show was a Koori show. And then Songlines was developed and with the likes of Grant Hansen, amazing frontier pioneer in Victorian Aboriginal music. The idealisms of Grant and getting things moving is amazing. He can move mountains, this guy. And he also played a big role in getting the license for 3KnD. So there is a combination of building something and getting it out there.

He was part of the foundations of Songlines, and he ran it for a long time. And lived off bread and butter while doing it. And it’s developed into… we’re not a huge organization, we’re very limited funded, but the history is still keeping going. And of course, the shared spirit and what we do around supporting Aboriginal artists. There’s a lot more we would love to do through Songlines, but funding is your fuel. If you don’t have the funding, it makes it difficult.

Charles:

And we’ll come to share the spirit in just a couple of minutes. I’m interested that you said that there’s still a lot more we can do. Let’s just build on what Songlines does right now. From a day-to-day operational perspective, what is the key role of Songlines? What does it actually do?

Brad:

Robbie Bundle and I… Robbie Bundle is our CEO, amazing man. Played in a band called Blackfoot, way back with us when we were doing the Blackfire early days. Great musician, great leader, great knowledge, and a beautiful person in general. Sometimes it’s like that Dave Arden song, one step forward, two step backwards. We feel like that we’re back in the stage of the funding bodies and the general population, like partnerships and networking and all that. And there’s only two of us who are running the organization. So when we get caught up in that, sometimes it takes us away from what our musicians, our members’ needs are. And so we go back to that. It might be forums where we can talk to managers and songwriters and having opportunities to create and have access to studios to record their songs.

Charles:

Gotcha.

Brad:

People don’t have the money, studios are-

Charles:

Pretty expensive. Yeah.

Brad:

And there might be a point where they played a crappy guitar that they got off their uncle way back in 2001 that’s been wonderful for them… but it’s giving the confidence to our musicians that you deserve the best because you are one of the best, and you can have the best equipment around you and the best people to work with because you’re at that level. The oppression within Aboriginal music within Victoria is real, thinking, “Oh, I’m not good enough”, “I didn’t get the opportunity to go to music school”,  “I didn’t get the opportunity to play in bands or do a lot.” But I didn’t go to music school. And luckily enough, I’ve had the opportunity to play around some very, very capable musicians who teach you.

Charles:

So there’s mentoring.

Brad:

Absolutely, there is.

Charles:

And that seems to be there’s mentoring at a musical level, at a management level, if you’re talking to the managers.

Brad:

Yes.

Charles:

Brad, what are some of the key challenges that your members and their managers and support teams are facing when it comes to breaking into mainstream?

Brad:

There’s so much to break through to mainstream to get in there. First, you got to find a big label that’s willing to take you on. If you’re the flavor of that label or the flavor of the month, or you’ve got something to offer. There is a lot of lot of artists who just are on the edge, but they won’t take them to the next step, to the big step. And because, to them, it’s not worth the money.

Charles:

You’re saying the labels won’t take them?

Brad:

The labels. I’m talking about the labels. So you’ll find that there’s very, very few that make it big within the mainstream industry.

Charles:

What do you think that these labels are looking for when it comes to Black acts?

Brad:

Probably safety. And Yothu Yindi were radical, they sang the truth and they had the beat and all that and it was wonderful. Uncle Archie, same thing – he sang about stolen generations and all that. They’re brilliant musicians, and they’ve got wonderful voices and they’ve got the groove. And they got the Songline as well. And there’s so many more artists out there that I know of who are just as capable and got the presence and the music to present to everyone, but they just don’t get the opportunity. And it’s like they want to do one at a time instead of having three or four Aboriginal acts within their label.

Charles:

How do these young acts – and I’m saying young as in unrecognized really, and unembraced by the broader community and the labels – what do they need to do without compromising their own cultural integrity, what do they need to do to somehow get these labels to listen to them, embrace them and support them going forward?

Brad:

For example, Blackfire, we are partnershipped and not so much contracted, but we partnership with Golden Robot label. One of the biggest independent labels in the world. And they sit down, and particularly with Grant, because Grant does a lot of the talking, but Grant’s very transparent and involves me as well. And their approach is, “Okay, we want to promote you.” Because they approached us to sign up with Golden Robot. We didn’t approach them. And they found us and said, “We want yous.” I said, “Okay, this is what we got to offer.” They were willing to sit down and listen and talk to us. There was offerings. The offerings, “Oh, we’ll pay for this.” “No, we can’t afford to pay that back. We’ll do it ourselves. We’ll remain independent in producing our records and that. We’ll provide the product.” And then they’ve got all the access. We’ve been played in UK, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, all over Europe and parts of UK, maybe USA, our songs. And we’re getting feedback on how great it is.

What they’ve done is Golden Robots said, “Okay, this is what we can do for you. It’s not going to cost us anything, probably some man-hours, and then we’ll upfront that as well. And this is, we’ll have deadlines. You guys have some music and some songs out ready by this day,” and we do that. We follow their end. And it seems to work well. In the case of sitting down with Aboriginal artists, what are your expectations? What do you need? And we’re very negotiable. We’re very sharing and caring. Say, “Yeah, we’ll look after you. We won’t hold you back.”

Charles:

But that’s a particular recording label and a particular band. But if you were to give, say two key messages out there to people such as Pirritu, for example, we were speaking about earlier and a great mate. What advice would you be giving to the artists themselves? How do they actually, without compromising themselves, get in front and get the ear and the support of these big labels?

Brad:

Well, you don’t sell your soul to do it as well. You keep your pride, you keep your ethics, your Black ethics, your motivation, and your methods. Be careful, because it is a great opportunity. And we don’t encourage musicians to say, “No, don’t do it.” If you get an offer off one of the big labels, go for it. It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful for everyone. There are advantages for it. It’s just a fine print that you’ve got to be careful of, read it, get someone to look over it. If you don’t like it, tell them. Because a contract is not a one-way thing, it’s a two-way agreement.

Charles:

Yeah, for sure.

Brad:

And have the strength and the courage to say, “I don’t agree with this bit, I can’t do this bit, but this is what I can do towards that bit.” And say that to them and compromise and negotiate.

Charles:

So remain strong.

Brad:

Absolutely. Yeah. Because the stars are in your eyes and they’re promising the world and all that, but then you might miss something where you could… It can be risky for you.

Charles:

What about the importance of community radio? Because we know that, as opposed to commercial radio which is very ratings driven, community radio is more responsive to the community itself. You mentioned 3CR before, which has always been a hotbed of, well, apart from radical ideas and concepts, thank goodness for 3CR. But always been prepared to play new artists. 3RRR does the same thing here. We have 3KND with a particular focus on First Nations artists. Where do you see community radio going forward maybe 10, 20 years in the support for First Nations artists across Victoria?

Brad:

I could probably boast about something.

Charles:

Go for it.

Brad:

When I was doing the… I was Koori radio producer at 3CR early 80s, probably ’84, ’85. I got Archie and Ruby in. Selwyn Burns helped me and said, “Come down, Brad Brown’s got a show.” This is before Archie… I don’t know if it was one of the first, I won’t claim it but…

Charles:

Oh claim it. Claim it.

Brad:

It was very, very early Archie. And Archie’s through bloodline through Gunditjmara for me. And they sung Charcoal Lane in a studio, in 3CR, acoustic. Not a lot of acoustic. I remember it’s clear as day and Ruby sitting there. It was wonderful. Didn’t realize the importance of it ‘til now, or later on in life. You might think they’re small or not insignificant moments, but they’re huge those moments. Because it gives people an opportunity, exposure, confidence to do these things. Because there’s nothing worse when, like any artist, if you’re painting, or writing, or writing songs, you think that your material isn’t good enough until you get it out there and people walk up and go, “That is amazing. I love that.” And you go, “Really?” I write songs and people go, “That’s a great song.” I say, “Really? You think so?” And it’s humble and it feels good, but your own impressions of your own stuff can challenge yourself.

So community radio can provide that platform for those reasons, as well as expressing and exposing them to the general community for a different perspective. It’s an honest perspective as well. And you won’t get Aboriginal people going on radio and talking lies and crap and try to spin you yarns. What you hear from mob who are on the radio if they’re singing or they’re doing interviews, you’re getting their truth and their perspective through their own journey and history or trauma or good stuff.

Charles:

How important is it then for young First Nations artists to actually make connections with their local radio station? We’ve got community radio stations all over the flipping state, for goodness sake. How important is it for them to get out there, to get off their mooms and actually contact the station manager and say, “Look, I think I’ve got something that’d be great,” whether it’s an exclusive for a new album or a new single?

Brad:

It is. The RRRs, the 3CR, KNDs, PBS, amazing, amazing ones that will continue to play our music and talk to us about it as well. You won’t find it on the commercial radio station, so we need it out there somewhere. Now we’ve got live-streaming stuff. There’s a lot more social media access and there’s podcasts and everything. Probably even that space there’s so many podcasts and all that, there’s so many that people can only listen to. That’s sort of limited as well.

I remember through the journey and all the songs I used to play way back then in the 80s was Kev Carmody, No Fixed [Address] and Bobby McLeod would have been Archie, of course. There was so many Aboriginal artists that have passed on or are still going today that I played back, way back then. And that was the core of our music, us mob and Roger Knox…

Charles:

Yeah, of course.

Brad:

There’s so many that … the list goes on. And of course, me as a young teenager at that stage, being exposed to it; oh, that was just amazing. Because when people request them now I go, “I know that song.”

Charles:

It’s not boasting, brother – and it’s not.

Brad:

No, no, it’s not boasting. It’s just inbreded and it’s in my genes now.

Charles:

I think it’s awesome.

Brad:

And it’s like, “Yeah, I remember that song. I know how it goes.”

Charles:

Well, you’re talking there about some of the key founding members of Black music here. But we’re now talking, what, 40 years later, now being 2026. What are some of the changes that you’ve seen come into Black music with so many of these amazing young artists? And there are so many more. What are some of the key changes you’ve seen musically and operationally?

Brad:

Well, I’m blessed in a lot of ways. I play bass, and of course my band’s Blackfire and also play in a band called Straight Blacks, who we’re older guys too and we love to rock. And it’s a bit ad libbed and it’s rock and roll and we’re great. Then I’ve got artists like Kanisha and Leonie Whyman and Dangara Biami. They’re the younger ones that I play with, and I’m learning from them as much as I’m offering to them.

Charles:

But what are you learning? What’s the learning challenge for you?

Brad:

Their messages, what they’re dealing with today. What their challenges are at their age group, as well as their perspective, their type of music. I’ve had to reinvent a lot of my bass playing around these young people. And the professionalism that they’re presenting as well is next to none. They’re amazing. And their talent is amazing. It takes a lot of courage to do that. It takes a lot, particularly if you’re, like Kanisha, being the front person out there exposed. Because I know Kanisha personally, obviously, and in the background she’s a different girl, but when she’s on stage, she’s got energy and all that. And very community minded, very very driven by community, and for her mob. And then you’ve got Leonie whos very spiritual, wonderful, Aboriginal person, very talented. These musicians have got amazing voices.

Charles:

Yeah. Oh, without a doubt.

Brad:

They sing amazingly. And that’s where I feel I’m blessed around these young people, what they teach me as much as what I can offer them.

Charles:

What’s the future for Black music in Victoria?

Brad:

I’d like to see our own label at some stage. We’ve got all the resources that we can produce and record and get the label out there, or a streaming app. A Songline streaming app or something. They’re not paying crazy amounts. And if they’re paying a dollar a song or 10 bucks an album, $9 goes to the artist, or 90 cents goes to the artist to each song instead of the other way around. That we find now that mainstream streaming where artists are getting a pittance and the streamer gets all the money. And it’s a challenge for musicians worldwide, it’s not only us. It’s spoken around in the States. It’s spoken around everywhere. And to the point where musicians are actually boycotting some particular streaming services.

Charles:

That also brings up the matter of artificial intelligence.

Brad:

It does. It does.

Charles:

Let’s just dive into that before we wind up the interview, Brad. How much of a challenge does that represent to Black artists in particular across Victoria and Australia?

Brad:

Nothing can beat natural creativity.

Charles:

But what are the challenges?

Brad:

The challenges around AI for Aboriginal,  First Nation artists, it’s an easy way and it can cut us in ways of, “Oh, we’ll just get AI to do it and it costs us nothing.” And then it takes food off the table of our artists. A lot of artists are dependent on their creative work, regardless if it’s doing live gigs or creating something, or a jingle or an ad, music or something. And that can take it away. It’s like taking away the person who pumped the petrol in the car and now self-serve. Or the cashier at your local Cole’s. Now it’s all, you’ve got that robot, you go and do it yourself.

Charles:

What can people do? The ordinary listener, the consumer of music, what can they do to help the First Nations artists really have those opportunities? Because you’re right, there are too many chances out there for First Nations artists to be sidetracked, especially when it comes to jingles.

Brad:

Well, I’ve got a lot of friends in the music industry, and they’re not all Black fellas. A very general range of people from different backgrounds. This is one of the common grounds that we have is the challenges, apart from the streaming stuff and what you can earn through it, is AI who can take away a lot of their creativity and then they can’t pay their bills, and then they don’t get the opportunity to produce something amazing from the spirit, the soul, the heart, and through their history of what they’ve come through to bring to this point to produce something like that. And that’s a shame, because then it becomes unnatural.

Charles:

For the last question now, Brad, what is the one message you’d like to get out there to the consumers of music that they can do to support First Nations musical artists, and the industry itself?

Brad:

Support us in any way you can. Look, we always need shows. We always need to be on the bill somewhere, if there’s a festival. Support Songlines through that, because we’ve got the networks out there. You would have seen the 2026 Share the Spirit we had last month, 7,500 people there. And it was all local acts and we had Coloured Stone come in. And you can see what we could do and you can see what we can present. Don’t be afraid of it, because only good will come out of it, and listen to your own self instead of opinions of a lot of other people. Listen to yourself what you think is right. And support Aboriginal music, because we need as much support as anyone else. I’m a big fan of Australian music,I love it, the best music in the world is Australian music. That’s genuinely, I grew up around it. But then you’ve got the special part of Aboriginal music and it’s unique, and there’s a lot of stories behind it, and you can learn a lot from it and gain a lot from it. It’s not there to have a go at you.

Charles:

Brad Brown, general manager of Songlines. Thanks for joining me on the program today.

Brad:

You’re welcome.