Charles Pakana: I'm joined today on the program by Sheree Lowe from VACCHO, the Victorian Aboriginal Community-Controlled Health Organisation, to explore the vital role of kinship care in keeping Aboriginal culture alive and thriving for the next generation and those generations to come. We'll be discussing both the profound cultural strengths of these family networks and the urgent systemic support our carers need. Sheree, thanks for joining me today.

Sheree Lowe: Thanks for having me.

Charles: Sheree, to set the scene for our listeners, could you just explain what kinship care means within an Aboriginal community context and how it differs, this is the important thing, from the mainstream Western definition of foster care?

Sheree: What's important to note is that both of those options of care are available or are options when a child is being removed from their family for a whole range of different reasons. What we've found is kinship carers play such an important, unseen role, and probably unrecognised role, whereas foster carers, who play a very similar role in providing place and safety and security for children and young people who have been removed, although they're playing a similar role, how they're supported and resourced and recognised are quite different. It's important to say that both probably don't get the support that they need in the role that they play, particularly when they're supporting young people with quite complex needs. They've obviously experienced trauma that's kind of touched them into the path of where they are. But kinship is really an extension, and this is where it kind of gets a little bit, you know, tricky to explain because it's really leaning on concepts of Aboriginal ways of knowing, being and doing. When we talk about kinship and the importance of kinship structures, and for people who don't know, from an Aboriginal perspective, that we do have quite sophisticated kinship structures.

And I think that when we think about that, it was something that was quite intentional to disrupt through colonisation, that disruption of roles within families, the displacement of people, and that's kind of carried through the generations of that disruption has really created this gap in how we share, how we translate, how we demonstrate knowledge from elders down through the generations, which is quite an Aboriginal way of knowing and doing and being. And so we've picked up this kind of language in our Western system, kinship structures. What I think is really important to acknowledge is that if we're going to talk about it in the context of the importance of kin and keeping connected, which we'll talk about that a little bit later on in some of the questions about the important role of that, then we should also support it and invest in it and really recognise that role as well, which is probably the missing bit.

Charles: So, from your perspective, let's just understand why is it that keeping a child within their family or their community network, why is it so fundamental to preserving their identity and connection to country? It's a bit of a no-brainer, but it's really worthwhile to just understand that.

Sheree: I think a lot of people have the luxury to not have to think about this much, like their sense of belonging, where they connect. And I don't just mean that from an Aboriginal perspective, I actually mean that just from a societal viewpoint, in that many people don't have to think about that. They're surrounded by their culture in that Western way. They find places where they fit, whether that's the sporting club, whether it's the, you know, religious groups, hobby groups, you name it, the world is being designed around them. So you don't really have to think about your sense of belonging because it's just there. And so I think that when you don't have to think about it, it starts to become a little bit complex to understand [that] some people don't have that. And what we do know, whether you're Aboriginal or not, when you have strong connection to place and people, then the flow-on benefits of that are great. How you contribute, how you fit in and just how you feel. So that's a really important part to that also. So there's that centre of place and people, but also your identity in who you are. If you don't have a strong sense of that, then it's something that you'll yearn for, or something that's like a missing bit to who you are. It might not be present in the immediate, but there will come a point in that person's life where they'll want to know and need to know.

Charles: So we often hear that culture is a protective factor for Aboriginal children, and we've recognised that. But how does staying connected to culture through kinship care practically impact a young person's emotional wellbeing and resilience? And you were leading onto that just with that previous answer. So let's just expand on it a bit.

Sheree: The intention of kinship carers is it's keeping children within the family structure, which is really important.

Charles: And just to clarify, that's the extended family structure?

Sheree: Extended family structure, yes.

Charles: Right.

Sheree: And it could be, even though we talk about kinship, it could actually be Aboriginal children being placed in their non-Aboriginal family structure as well. So when we talk about kin and kinship, it's not restricted to just the Aboriginal aspects of that family. And that probably poses a little bit of challenges for those carers. But having that connection point to family, the intention of that is to be able to ensure that although this child or children, in some cases, are not able to be with their immediate family, they can still gain those benefits of connection to those roles within families. So Elders, Aunties, Uncles… the Elders, but also the broader family network, so cousins and whatnot, but also the other elements that sit within culture. People think about culture at a very surface level. The things that we can see or the tangible things of culture, whether it's what people wear, how they look, what they eat, those kinds of things that we can see or touch and those types of things. But culture for everybody is so much deeper than that. It's the customs, it's language, it's stories that connect us. It's those things that are really important around identity.

Charles: So if the kinship carer is to assist that young person in their care with getting a stronger identity, of getting to those, essentially, mechanisms that lie under the surface in connecting to country, to culture, to self, what are some of the things or some of the ways that culture can be kept alive and vital within the home? Essentially, what are some of the day-to-day tricks that people may not recognise but could easily do? And you and I have discussed this before.

Sheree: There's lots that can be done, and sometimes it's hard for me to kind of pinpoint some of those exact things because for me it's just the day-to-day of how I am. And I've been pressed on this a little bit. Many years ago, I did a piece of work with the Department of Health and Human Services, which was then, now it's the Department of Fairness, Families and Housing. And it was around a piece of work to invest in cultural plans for kids in out-of-home care. There was a legislation change that was mandating that all kids that were placed in care would have a cultural support plan. And so what did that look like? How was that going to happen? And through that, working with non-Aboriginal people within the department in a child protection space, one of the workers there said to me, “It's all right for you, Sheree, because you've got a culture. We don't have that.” And I was just really taken by that because I'd never really seen that from that perspective before. My response to that was “We've all got a culture of I just have to defend and advocate for mine on a day-to-day basis because people don't see that and recognise that.” And then the follow-on question to that to me was, “Yeah, but… so what do you do? Like, how do you embed culture on a day-to-day?” I think for me, and when I think about that for my kids and now my grandkids, it's really important to know that they are Aboriginal first and foremost. You cannot just assume that, that kids know that. So we talk about that on a day-to-day basis, like our stories, our families, our connections, our country. And we all live off country. So it's important to respect the country that we're on, and know the stories of here in Wadawurrung country and people and pay respects to that. But also the stories of our people. Not just cultural stories, but also the fight and the struggle. But it's about sharing that knowledge because, for my generation, my parents and their parents were really denied being able to talk about that. It was something that was taken away. My dad grew up at Framlingham Mission, and it was something that was not celebrated in that time. If you think about in the 60s and 70s, my dad was born in 54 in the little town of Warrnambool, the racism, it wasn't celebrated. You wouldn't see an Aboriginal flag flying, you know, on the local council or things like that. So it's really hidden. So what's really important is that celebration of culture, and sometimes that is that quite symbolic stuff. So what books do we have in the home that talk about Aboriginal stories? What are we watching on the telly? Do we watch NITV? What are we listening to on the radio? What music do we bring into the house? But more importantly, things that don't cost, like what's the environment around us? Where do we visit? How do we connect to country? Like all of those things, there doesn't always have to be a cost value in it. And sometimes you might be exploring together, like if you're a parent or even in these kinship roles, that there might be things that you don't know. But having and stepping into this role is kind of forcing you to think about those things, those reflective things, which is helping you grow as well.

Charles: Yes. Of course. 

Sheree: I think knowledge is a powerful thing, but it's an evolving thing. And the more we know and the more we find out, I think we find out there's more to know. And I really like that. That freaks some people out, but I really like that, that continuous kind of growth of not needing to know everything, but knowing collectively. That's where that collective model, the kinship come into it. Because you don't have to know everything.

Charles: We've spoken about some external resources you've mentioned, libraries you've mentioned, sometimes local councils can assist in connecting, but there are other resources as well, physical resources, like places to go, and when we've spoken about this previously, we mentioned gathering places, Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisations, or ACCO’s. So what role do they play? And from a non-Aboriginal perspective, if you're a kinship carer, how do you approach them? Because there's a degree of reticence in, “well, I'm not Aboriginal, I'm caring for an Aboriginal kid. What's my reception going to be like if I go to a gathering place or an ACCO?”

Sheree: I think I want to start the answer to that question in acknowledging that it's not always easy.

Charles: Yeah.

Sheree: And in particular in these cases where you're caring for kin. So the circumstances around that could have been quite challenging. So there can be a level of shame, there can be a level of uncertainty and a level of ‘in order to keep people safe, I need to take them away from community’ and those types of things, like “I don't want to kind of engage in that”. So I appreciate those feelings and those concerns. However, I would challenge people to say that as a kinship carer, you have that responsibility to uphold the cultural rights of the children in your care. So you've got to find a way around that. And like you said, we've got these amazing organisations, some are quite new, but some are quite old, and our co-ops or our ACCO’s, as you mentioned, some of them are reaching the mid 50 mark. Many of them established in the 70s and established in the 70s with a different purpose to what they are today. They were actually places of safety where mobs could come together and feel safe and advocate for rights, really, and the evolution of those services. And now you see many organisations providing a whole range of different services.

Charles: So it's fair to say that there's a degree of reluctance or even trepidation on the part of some of the kinship carers, those particularly who are either disconnected themselves or non-Aboriginal, to actually approach these ACCO’s and the gathering places. What's the one bit of advice you'd give to them in taking that step forward and making contact with these organisations?

Sheree: I think one of the points is that in the roles and responsibilities of a kinship carer, you have to uphold the rights of the child in your care. 

Charles: Yeah.

Sheree: And one of those rights, and a big right, is their right to cultural practice and connection and to be able to self determine them[selves] as First Peoples. And I think I want to acknowledge that it can be daunting and it can be a bit of uncertainty, stepping out into the unknown for some people, particularly if you're non-Aboriginal, but also if you are Aboriginal, you might not have always had a great relationship with your local ACCO, co-op or whatnot, but for the betterment and benefit of the child that you’ve got responsibility for, you need to take a deep breath, dust yourself off and kind of walk in the front door.

Charles: And the reality is that most of these organisations are going to welcome even non-Aboriginal kinship carers with open arms. And that's what I've seen over the years, surely.

Sheree: Yeah. And I think it's all about humanity of yourself and others. And people have heard me say this before, that there's the village to help people, and sometimes you don't know the help that you need. But sitting within these services, particularly our gathering places, are such cultural hubs. If we think about our ACCOs and our co-ops, where they have a few more of our clinical and health and wellbeing services under that one roof. It's amazing the services that you can get, and you can tap into. And I think you would be doing yourself and the children in your care an injustice of not reaching out to anyone and everybody to start to build your village to help with the work that you've got ahead.

Charles: Final question, Sheree, and that is for all the listeners, Aboriginal, non-Aboriginal, and let's also focus on policymakers in the state government. What are some of the key messages you'd like to share with regard to how kinship caring promotes a stronger, more resilient and healthy broader community?

Sheree: Well, I think that you've summed that up in your question about the role that they play of strengthening community, keeping kids connected. But what I would say to the policymakers is that we really need to support these people. We really need to wrap around and acknowledge the hard work that they do. They do not get resource the same as foster carers. And it's not just only financial support; they don't get the same financial support, but it's all those other wraparound supports as well. And what we see is some carers opting into more of a foster kind of caring arrangement because of the additional kind of broader supports that wrap around those carers. But what happens when you step into those statutory, more mandated roles is that it starts to move away from culture, it starts to move into a really Western structure. So we need to kind of get the balance of that all. So recognise, celebrate, wrap around them like they need. We can't say that they are a vital part of our service system and not treat them like that.

Charles: From your lips to the policymakers' ears, one can only hope. And I want to thank Sheree so much indeed. It's really been lovely having you here again, Sheree, because it's been a few months since we've yarned on the podcast. I also want to point out to our audience that Sheree and I are currently working together on a really exciting project under the VACCO banner called Pinich Bup Bup. Which is actually a set of nine video podcasts, which is all about providing resources and support for those under-resourced kinship carers out there. And we'll be providing you with information on our website when and where that is released. So Sheree, once again, Sis, thank you so much indeed for your time and your insights.

Sheree: Thanks for having me.