Charles Pakana: On today’s program, we catch up with veteran journalist and broadcaster, Aboriginal man, Dan Bourchier. Taking over as general manager of Australia’s Aboriginal and Torres Strait broadcaster, NITV in August 2025, Dan had previously established a name for himself as a trusted journalist at Sky News and more recently, the ABC. Dan, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today.

Dan Bourchier: Charles, so good to be with you. Thanks for making time to have a yarn with me.

Charles: Oh, well, the thanks go right back to you. But, Dan, look, you led the ABC’s referendum coverage in 2023, and any journalist, as we discussed prior to this interview, who worked in that space during those times know all too well it was a constant battle against an almost overwhelming tsunami of misinformation. From your own personal perspective, what did you take away as key journalistic learnings from that experience?

Dan: Look, in terms of the lessons, for me, there were a couple. One is the absolute unflinching power of the media and of storytelling and storytellers to be able to cut through the noise. And one of the things that I did that I absolutely loved and had such an impact on me, was the Elders One Plus One series, where we took all of the TV shows studio on the road. I was really conscious that I’ve spent so much of my time, and my career in studios. I’m very comfortable with cameras and all the drama of it, but I know that that’s not a normal place to be and it doesn’t necessarily facilitate creating a space for a really powerful conversation. And so we took out the cameras once we’d spoken to all these different Elders right across the nation and said, “well, if you want to have a yarn, do you want to invite us onto your country?” And we did that. And the type of stories that we heard and experience and voices from the Elders was something that I hadn’t seen on mainstream TV before. I’d seen it a lot through First Nations media, through platforms such as your own and NITV and the Koori Mail and the like. But I hadn’t seen that necessarily to that depth in mainstream media. And so that was really powerful for me.

And what it did is it opened up for me a whole different space of conversations about the referendum and the different perspectives people had, but also about more intrinsic, principled stories about how people saw themselves, what connection meant to them, what did the term “Elder” mean to all these different people. So on one hand, it had such a powerful effect on me. On the other hand, Charles, as you’ve mentioned, as I think anyone and veryone saw; we saw misinformation and disinformation at levels that I’ve never seen before. And what was really challenging was that you and I might jump onto our social media. And because we’ve liked different pages or because we’ve watched different videos, we have completely different algorithms. So the material that I was seeing that was about the referendum would be completely different to yours, and it would be completely different to your listeners’, because all of those things happen in the shadows where there’s no accountability of those algorithms and what goes on social media.

Charles: Well, this is the fractured algorithm that we’re talking about. And one of the great concerns I’ve noticed, and I’ve expressed, and even heard others express, is that there is a dramatic rise in the consumption of current affairs and news via social media. And even if we dive deeper there, it seems that it’s the social influencer who is taking a precedence over the journalist. So what does this mean, in your eyes right now, for the future of Australian media and Australian news consumption?

Dan: Look, it’s an extraordinary challenge of how do we address and cut through the noise of systems and structures that we can’t completely see. They are deliberately opaque, those fractured algorithms. As you rightly point out, they’re designed in a way to keep feeding people the type of material that they have either liked or that the algorithm has decided they could like with a few prompts. So it’s incredibly difficult. On the other side of that coin is the fact that you and I having this conversation, that you’ve had this conversation regularly, as have I, across different platforms, means that there is awareness. I think that’s the key first step of how to address it.

But I also think there’s an enormous responsibility for social media companies to be making sure that they are having in good faith conversations about ethics and values and what does that mean for the material people receive? And of course, this is all tied into those big national and international conversations about news bargaining and paying for media by those social media giants. But it’s an incredible challenge as well, because you’re right, people that would have a big following but are not bound by what you would say, quote, unquote, journalistic ethics or values are getting to be the ones that are informing and helping to frame public opinion. And it’s something that we need to think very carefully about. What does that look like, and how do we make sure that we’re all having the same conversations?

Charles: Dan, that also brings in the deficit model, because a lot of what this  fractured algorithm may present to the news consumer is stuff that actually just demonstrates the deficit model that has become so much the stereotype when it comes to covering First Nations. You’ve navigated mainstream and First Nations media landscapes for many, many years. You recognise, I’m sure, that mainstream media coverage of Indigenous affairs has historically suffered from deficit model. So this focuses heavily on trauma and conflict and all the negatives. So I want to take it back to NITV now and First Nations media outlets, as you mentioned, such as Koori Mail, NITV and others. So how does a dedicated First Nations editorial lens actively break down those, let’s be honest, lazy stereotypes and shift the national narrative?

Dan: I think we see it in the reporting that is happening right now at all of those platforms, including your own and NITV right now. And if I think about a really recent example of the absolutely horrific and tragic death of Kumanjayi Little Baby and the difference in reporting that we saw from any media organisations that had the First Nations lens at the forefront compared to the others you could see night and day between them, they were completely different. The other impact is that what I observed is that when we had First Nations journalists on the ground, and I want to shout out to Emma Calloway from the NITV team because I think she did just such an exceptional job and was able to give the space and platform to Kumanjayi Little Baby’s family in a way that preserved and maintained their dignity while giving them the space to have a voice in the way that they wanted to do it, in the terms that they wanted to do it. That also then impacted other media. And we saw other reporting then, even if it was small tweaks or small changes, starting to shift. And one of the key examples for me was I don’t think a media organisation that wasn’t using the name that the family had requested of Kumanjayi.

Charles: I noticed that, yeah.

Dan: I don’t know for you, but it really stuck out to me because in the past there would be some media organizations that I won’t name here that would vehemently push back against that and they would accuse that of being the woke brigade and, you know, whatever kind of deficit language they want to use. But you saw media organizations across the board leaning into that and that opened up a whole lot of different conversations nationally about what does that terminology mean, where does it come from? And that while something very small in the midst of the most horrific trauma, that has an impact on how everyone has conversations about what happened, but then also what happens next. So I’ve seen throughout my career, a huge leaning into that deficit model by a lot of media organisations. And I’ve tried to do what I can in the spaces that I’ve been in, but it was certainly one of the big motivating factors. When this job became available, I was really keen to get back to the place that gave me my start as a broadcast journalist and helped to shape and build me as a storyteller on the national stage. And I’m so grateful for the role of NITV and First nations media in making sure to create that space, but also elevating conversations that other media networks are just not interested in.

Charles: So how important is it from your perspective now as the general manager of NITV, and you’ve already stated the real difference it made to you and to the coverage of the Voice by taking the studios essentially out on country and speaking with Elders in their own areas. How important is this change and how needed is this change to start bringing about a real change in narrative as we’ve talked about previously and set an example for other media outlets? And as you mentioned, we’re not going to name names, but I think we know who they are.

Dan: Look, Charles, your career in media and journalism is longer than I’ve had hot dinners. So you know this better than I, that the change you’re referring to is crucial. And if we don’t get it right, then we’re going to continue to see that deficit model and that does nothing but damage. And there are some journalists who said to me that they wondered, this is not indigenous journalists, they wondered out loud of whether that deficit reporting had an impact on the result of the referendum. And I thought that was really interesting when I’m hearing those sorts of comments, because you’re having people that are not in this space seeing the correlation and impact of that type of reporting. And so those conversations are really important as well. But I guess to really clearly answer your question, I don’t think we’ve got a minute to waste.

Charles: What would your call to action be to young journalists out there nowadays? Because I come across them constantly in my travels and, and so many of them are just being subjected to the influences of 2023 and sensationalism and meeting deadlines, meeting the requirements to be out there first when it comes to social media, all these new pressures, you know, what realistically can you say to young journalists and to even established journalists if they’re to present the real news and the truth of the news?

Dan: Firstly, I would say stick at it. It’s really important to have those voices and those perspectives in First Nations media, but in all media organisations it is so crucial to have that difference of thinking. I think also having an awareness about the way that the media works and what the limitations of the structures that you’ve just touched on most of them. What are the limitations of that and what does it mean to have this push to be first published or first online or first on social media where facts and details are still emerging? And I always think back to of the lessons that I had as a very, very young journo or reporter in Tennant Creek at the Tennant District Times about making sure to take the time to be getting all of the facts and the whole picture. And I wonder if the speed with which information is disseminated now means that that has been one of the casualties. And so I’d be saying to journos, and I say this regularly, is just be very conscious about what are those structural limitations and how that works and make sure that you’re making decisions about your career that are best suited to you and to the impact that you want to have.

Charles: Following on directly from that, what then would you say to the general consumer of news in Australia, those who are seeking to break away from that fractured algorithm, those who are seeking to really find out the truth? Now here in Victoria, and I just want to talk about this for a minute or so, we’re seeing an enormous degree of confusion within the general community when it comes, of course, to Treaty and, of course, with Yoorrook having just closed last year with truth-telling, there is an enormous amount of negative news, of misinformation and resulting disinformation. What do you advocate to the consumer to do to get to the truth?

Dan: Well, firstly, I would say to the journalists that are perpetuating that mis and disinformation or deliberately picking details to sway the story, I would say, “do better.” And to the general audience, I would say, “ask more questions and think more deeply about what is happening and seek other perspectives on that. Go to other media organisations , check and assess the position that you’re taking and ask the question of why. Because I think it’s really important that we don’t get trapped into what we were touching on a little bit earlier around the algorithms, that we don’t get trapped into that way of thinking about even mainstream media, media news either.

Charles: So, Dan, let’s look toward the next decade. Now you’re in this management position, you’ve really done your apprenticeship out there in Tennant Creek, as you’ve mentioned, and you’ve done it in the trenches at the ABC and Sky News. God love you for that, my brother.

Dan:I must note, it was a different Sky News when I worked there. It certainly changed in the decade or so since I worked there, but. But no, not completely taken on board.

Charles: But you’ve seen the change in structure and you’ve just mentioned that things have changed. But when it comes to First Nations media and the ultimate vision for the scale and influence of First Nations media, what structural support or even institutional change is still missing to ensure that black led storytelling is recognised not as a niche sector, but as a pillar of Australia’s democratic landscape?

Dan: It comes down to who is telling the story, doesn’t it?

Charles: Yeah.

Dan: So if you don’t have a critical mass of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander journalists telling stories embedded in the structures that are making the decisions about the commissioning and the editing, and what is the story that a network is going to prioritise, then that’s a real challenge. So if you look at places such as the ABC and SBS that in the last year have both appointed directors of First Nations into their leadership structures, that’s a real game changer having Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people on the boards now of both national broadcasters. And I want to really call out the recent announcement in just the last couple of weeks of Damian Miller, who has just been appointed to the board of the ABC after an exceptional career as a diplomat and in fact Australia’s first Indigenous ambassador many, many years ago. He is the first Aboriginal board director to sit on the ABC since Neville Bonner left the role back in 1991. So Damien becomes just the second Aboriginal person to ever sit on the board of the ABC. Now that is shocking in 2026, but also it’s worth celebrating in 2026 as well and hopefully paves the way for many, many more voices. So I would say to the media organ, having Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people telling the stories in the places as the newsreaders like we have at channel 10 with Narelda and Marlena Wap at channel 7, I would say to all the networks they’ve got to do better to do that, to embed and to be fostering that talent from the beginning, from when young people are taking an interest in wanting to tell stories and wanting to be in that space. That’s what the editor of the Tennant Times did for me. And that decision and that investment has then seen me being able to take and seek out a whole range of different opportunities to where I am now.

The only other thing that I would say, Charles, is that when I look at the team at NITV, I am so excited. We have an executive that is chocked full of powerhouse thinkers that are bold and brave and unapologetic in what we are striving for. And when I sit in the meetings with the whole team, I get energized. And there is so much that we are seeing that is incredible. NITV is among the only linear channels that is growing in population. Our digital footprint has just reached past 1 million. We are commissioning news that other media organizations are not doing. We’re commissioning storytelling that others wouldn’t delve into those spaces. All of that has an impact on how we see ourselves as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as Australians, as part of the globe, the world population. It’s all really, really crucial. And that is what is exciting to me. And that’s the thing that I want to be really working on and making sure that we’re helping to create pathways to get even more Aboriginal [and] Torres Strait Islander people into these spaces of this important storytelling that gives me energy and that’s what I am really driven by.

Charles: Well, Dan, that really leads into the last question I have for you. And we don’t often get the general manager of NITV on this program, so-

Dan: Well, I hope that’s going to change now.

Charles: From your lips to the ears of those who make the decisions. But Dan, under the general managership of Dan Bourchier, what then is the future of NITV over the next several years?

Dan: I feel like we have as an organization over the last 19 years – we turn 20 next year – have carved out such an incredible place. We need to keep growing that remaining passionately connected to our community and to our most important stakeholder and audience. And that is the people that really advocated and fought for NITV to come into existence over many, many years and decades. We need to keep holding the line on telling stories, on building talent and pipelines for storytelling. And we need to be also helping to bring all Australians into our story and into this space. And that’s really exciting that we have an opportunity to be not only making sure that we are the place that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people come to tell stories, have voices heard, to be platforms for other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but also opening up that space for all Australians. In 2023, it felt like our very existence was being questioned and challenged. And we see the routine questioning of acknowledgement to country and of welcome to country and all of those kind of fig leaf arguments that are really covering the bigger thing that people are not wanting to say, we have an opportunity to challenge that and say, hold on, here is all these incredible stories that you get to be a part of as well, that this is a part of everyone’s story who lives in this place.

Charles: Dan Bourchier, General Manager of NITV, thanks for your time.

Dan: Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and the incredible work you’re doing. Thank you.

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