Charles Pakana: Today on the program we’re going to be talking business, specifically blak business, and even more specifically we’re going to be talking about an initiative that’s been going on since 2012, so a good 14 years and being run by Dilin Duwa. Joining me today to talk about the MURRA program is Dilin Duwa’s Associate director since October 2025, Paul Paton. Paul, thanks for joining me on the program today.

Paul Paton: Thanks Charles. Great to see you and I’m really glad we can have this yarn.

Charles: Well, it’s been a while. Last we spoke we were talking about dingoes, I think in 2025 or 2024, I believe when you were the CEO of the Federation of the Victorian Traditional Owner Corporations.

Paul: That’s correct.

Charles: Times have moved on, as have you. So we’re going from talking about dingoes to talking about blak business and blak business leadership. Paul, just give us a bit of an overview, not necessarily of Dilin Duwa because there are other interviews with the founder of Dilin Duwa, Michelle Evans, on our website, but the MURRA program itself because you mentioned it was almost a mini MBA in blak business?

Paul: That’s correct. Yes, it is. It is an MBA. It’s a program, an award winning program that’s been running since 2012 as you said. And it is run in partnership with the Melbourne Business school which delivers MBAs, you know, world leading MBAs. And the MURRA program is a 12 day program run in blocks of three, lots of four days. 

Charles: Yeah.

Paul: And we have participants from all over the country coming in from businesses to people who are in leadership roles who want to take their positions further. And it is a mini MBA in that it has the faculty from the Melbourne Business School alongside academic staff at Dylan Duwa delivering the 12 day program which looks at business strategy, finance, negotiations, leadership, all of those things that you do in an MBA.

Charles: But, but yeah, then the cultural perspective though, Paul.

Paul: Absolutely.

Charles: So what do we look at in the cultural perspective and why is that so important?

Paul: I think as Aboriginal businesses continue to flourish and the numbers are there as far as the contribution to the economy, over $16 billion, I think it is, that Aboriginal businesses are contributing to the economy and that’s going to continue to grow.

Charles: That’s Australia wide?

Paul: Australia wide.

Charles: Right.

Paul: And what we need to do to be able to continue to support and foster that growth is to deliver culturally appropriate programs that will recognise Indigenous businesses for what they are as hybrid ventures that balance business and profit with community connection to a country. And to be able to balance those things within a, within a business context is underpinned by the learnings that we bring to that program to support entrepreneurs, design and create businesses that are going to flourish and be part of that ecosystem that’s breaking the cycle of poverty and creating pathways for people to enter into business and become successful entrepreneurs.

Charles: Well, we’re talking self determination, Paul, aren’t we?

Paul: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s what it’s all about. It’s self determination in practice. We’ve got almost 300 alumni since the program has been running and all of those businesses have reported, within two years a growth, in the revenue and their employees and those who are in leadership roles or wanting to step into leadership roles. We can see growth in people after attending the MURRA program, going into those leadership roles.

Charles: I’m interested – you mentioned a minute or so ago about one of the important cultural components or aspects of this was understanding the connection to community. And this is one of the interesting things about a lot of blak businesses is that, apart from being born from community, in many cases they tend to give back to community, don’t they? Not necessarily in the social enterprise model, but there is that willingness and encouragement to employ other Aboriginal people from their communities, whether it’s family or extended family. And that, as you mentioned, is breaking that cycle of poverty and achieving that self determination. What are some of the specific things that you would be talking about with some of the attendees of the MURRA program to, to bring that into reality, that connection to community. Because you can’t just say, well, you know, as a blak business, you’ve got to connect with community. How does it actually play out?

Paul: I think it plays out in many ways. We talk about jobs and, you know, we know that blak businesses are more likely to employ Aboriginal people and, you know, there is. We’re still facing a lot of challenges within communities, within the broader community, with employment and the racism that exists in communities and people aren’t being given a chance to be employed due to those underlying situations. So blak businesses do look to be able to support communities through employment and also to be able to give back to community, as I said before, through initiatives such as programs that will support younger people into leadership programs and those types of things, or supporting Indigenous artists with their work. I was looking at a business recently that developed swimwear and it developed Indigenous art on its swimwear. Its whole entire reason for being was to support Indigenous communities and Indigenous artists and promoting culture through that fashion brand. So I think there’s a lot to kind of consider, whether it be intellectual property and ensuring that you’re honoring and respecting knowledge.

Charles: So we bring in the ICIP issue as well. So let’s just talk about the Indigenous Cultural Intellectual Property. Just how does that fit in with the MURRA program as well? Because where you said 12 days already, you’re talking about a heck of a lot of stuff to embed within a 12 day program. So how do you bring that ICIP issue into there? Cause I know that with the work spearheaded by, for example, Terri Janke up there in Sydney and across the world, in fact, it’s a massive issue.

Paul: It is. And I’m heading off to a regional program just later this week. And we’ve actually engaged Terri Janky’s company to come and deliver that program regionally and talk about intellectual property to those workshop participants. And the same is done in the MURRA program where we bring experts in to be able to speak authoritatively around intellectual property and I think understanding from a legal perspective, but also from a community governance perspective as well, and ensuring that those relationships and those arrangements are in place for an Aboriginal business who does have intellectual property considerations that it’s honouring those cultural expectations that exist within those communities to ensure that it’s meeting its obligations and cultural obligations towards knowledge and appropriate use.

Charles: You made mention also of the fact that you were working with a swimwear designer as an example. And the question popped into my mind, so just what sort of businesses does the MURRA program actually encompass?

Paul: The MURRA program has alumni from every possible business that you can think of across the country, we have a network of over 700 Indigenous business leaders engaged in our programs. And that can be ranging from swimwear to consulting to construction, you name it. 

Charles: Wow.

Paul: Aboriginal businesses are engaging in that program and developing new businesses or developing leaders in existing businesses to create that pathway. Because after the MURRA program, I mentioned that the graduate programs, and a lot of graduates of MURRA, will then go on to a graduate certificate in Indigenous business leadership or a master’s in the same Indigenous business leadership, which has, as we know, many, many pathways. One being a PhD if you want to do research or an industry kind of pathway. And that’s really, you know, developing that depth of knowledge and leadership that is going to continue to support the system and see its growth over the next 10, 20, 30 years.

Charles: Now, Paul, one of the reasons we’re doing this interview right now is that you gave me a call a couple of days ago and made mention of the fact, in a general conversation, that there was a bit of a cutoff happening pretty soon for this current intake. Hence we’re sitting down right now having a yarn about this because, as I mentioned, having yarned with Michelle over the years, I really respect the work that Dilin Duwa is doing and this particular program. When’s the cutoff for a start? Let’s get to the nitty gritty of this. When is the cutoff?

Paul: The cutoff is the 8th of April.

Charles: The 8th of April?

Paul: Yeah.

Charles: How many do you manage for in the intake?

Paul: The classes are quite small. We target a range of between 25 and 30 people and they go through a selection process. They have to apply and provide information about their work history and they answer a few questions about their objectives and goals. It’s not an automatic thing. We want to make sure that people are set up for success when they come into the program, so we want to understand their background to be able to ensure that the program is going to be right for them.

Charles: So what sort of things might you be looking for?

Paul: Someone who’s in maybe a managerial role, if they’re looking to take that next step into a leadership or an executive role or someone who’s currently in business, but they’re just sort of starting out and they’re not sure, you know, that they’re doing things the right way or they’re not sure how to go about a particular aspect of business, whether that be finance or,  negotiating contracts and things like that. So they get access to all that knowledge to be able to support them, to understand that, at least at a level that will help them go to that next stage.

Charles: If it’s an aboriginal person working in a white organisation, are they still eligible?

Paul: Yes. Yes. And we would encourage them to have a conversation with their employer because there are some costs associated with participating in the course. There are also some scholarships, depending on individual circumstances, that we’ve obtained some funding from some corporates to be able to support applicants, to be able to come into the program. But, you know, there are some eligibility criteria that exist that our questions are designed to help us understand people’s circumstances, to determine whether they’d be eligible for a scholarship to attend the program. It’s a residential program if you’re from interstate, and all those costs are met by Dilin Duwa.

Charles: I’m interested to understand from your perspective what benefits an Aboriginal or a Torres Strait Islander manager in a white business might bring back to the organization post attendance at the particular course. And we’ve got to look at it from a business perspective as well.

Paul: I think a lot of the skills that are transferable between an Aboriginal business and a mainstream business, whether that be around finance, negotiations, leadership, management, all those types of things, can be brought back and create opportunities for participants in a mainstream business to progress through those leadership roles. Or some of the cultural learnings – you know, many, many businesses are looking to incorporate aspects of cultural competency within their organizations. So they can bring those back and show some leadership back in those organizations to ensure that they’re being delivered in a culturally appropriate way.

Charles: I just want to get an idea of– with the applications you mentioned the 8th April. How do people find out more information about it beyond just listening to this interview? And many will listen to the interview after the 8th of April. But prior to that, where do people go to find out more information?

Paul: The first place would be our website. I would say that yes, the 8th of April exists. It does run every year. So if you were to miss this year, there’s always next year as well. But they would go to our website; dilinduwa.com.au follow the prompts to the application page and fill in that application. Our program manager, Chris, he’s a Noongar fellow, he’ll give you a call and have a yarn of you about your application and take it from there. If we need any more information, we’ll let you know.

Charles: Let’s just stick with that point. It’s interesting; you said then you know your colleague, a Noongar fellow, would give you a call. Obviously a lot of courses that are run by various business schools and other organizations have no understanding of cultural appropriateness when it comes to working with first nations people and trying to encourage them into mainstream management and business leadership. What are some of the other telling factors within the MURRA program that give it that sense of cultural safety?

Paul: The program has been designed by Aboriginal people. The content is some of the traditional content as well as the cultural content that sort of overlays that. People come into the program and they’ve got instantly a network of 25 plus other Aboriginal people in the room and you’ve got experience in that room that you can draw on, bring your own experience, and I guess a culturally safe environment has been automatically kind of established through participants in the room.

Charles: Yeah.

Paul: And by the, by the leadership in the room, the teachers and the program deliverers ensure that all those cultural aspects, cultural safety aspects, are considered and ensuring that if there are any specific cultural considerations, I mentioned, Chris before, you know, you can have a yarn to Chris about anything and ask him any questions about the program or specific needs. We’ll certainly be looking to accommodate those as well.

Charles: One of the things I did note with a degree of interest when I was doing a bit of preparation for this interview was that you have an Indigenous Advisory Committee and one particular name popped up, and that was Wurundjeri Elder, Aunty Di Kerr. What’s their involvement in this? How long has it been in place? And what impact, ongoing, does it have to the delivery and construct of MURRA?

Paul: The Indigenous Advisory Group oversees Dilin Duwa. And it’s really important as an Indigenous research centre that there is Indigenous governance embedded in everything that we do. So we’ve set up an Indigenous Advisory Group that meets on a quarterly basis. And the director, Michelle, reports to that group and informs them of our work, our existing work, some of the challenges that we might face, or some of the future work that we’re developing to ensure that there’s that cultural lens applied. And the Indigenous Advisory Group is made up of Indigenous leaders; Aunty Di Kerr, as you mentioned, is a Wurundjeri elder and MURRA alumni who’ve gone through that Dilin Duwa process as well to be able to ensure that we’re continually refining our programs and their delivery to ensure that there’s a really strong cultural lens applied to everything that we do.

Charles: Just before we let you go, Paul, I’m also interested that you have relationships beyond just within the alumni and the circle of MURRA and Dilin Duwa. You mentioned Supply Nation and Kinaway. How do those relationships play out and what benefit do they bring to this particular program and the participants?

Paul: Those relationships are really important to us. We have the business leaders that come through, but those chambers of commerce, such as Kinaway, who were involved in the design of MURRA way back before it even started, and Supply Nation are really important relationships for us to be able to keep our finger on the pulse in regards to trends regarding Indigenous businesses. And we’re, as I mentioned, we’re doing some research projects that follow Indigenous businesses over several years. And we have organizations such as the chambers of commerce in many states, as well as some government departments as well, that are supporting that research to help us understand the trends in Indigenous businesses so that they can inform policy as well as inform the program that we’re delivering so that there’s that flow coming back into Dilin Duwa from indigenous businesses back out into those who are coming through the program and designing their their own businesses, or if there are barriers, you know, or trends that require a policy shift, then we’re also doing that to be able to keep that flow of information and trends moving through the system and going to wherever it needs to be to inform future decision makers.

Charles: Paul, thanks so much indeed for your time. Really appreciate it. And to our listeners out there, if you do want to be involved in this particular program for 2026 intake, as Paul mentioned before, the cutoff date is the 8th of April. Best thing is to get onto the dilinduwa.com.au website to find out more about the MURRA program. Paul Paton, Associate Director at Dilin Duwa since October 2025. Great to see you landed there, brother. Thanks so much indeed for your time.

Paul: Thanks, Charles. Really great to be yarning with you today.